Music in a Period Tavern

[Cuisto Mako]

That's true, but at the same time the baroque orchestra of that era was made of between 20 and 30 musicians so they did tune their instruments to a specific pitch. The cittern it is true was rarelly part of such ensemble.

Yes indeed, but earlier the cittern had been a usual member of the 'broken consort', so presumably at some point was tuned in pitch with other instruments. I wasn't suggesting that nobody played in a common pitch, only that it wasn't necessarily universal for solo musicians.

I see what you mean, totally agree with you.

[hurricane]

True, once you begin to play with other instruments and musicians you need to tune to something. I don't think they were tone deaf 300 years ago... The more you play the better your ear is trained to pitch and tuning. So once your playing with others you would notice this even more. I agree with you Foxe that soloists would do whatever sounds right to the player.

That's not necessarily the case. I myself played with an older gentlemen, an Irishman who played baritone uke. He never used a pitch pipe or had any tuning except his. If you wanted to play with him, you tuned to him, even if you had a pitch pipe or tuner. I think that would be the ordinary way back then - you would tune to the lead instrument and we've done it ourselves recently. We tuned to each other and off we went. If we were all a half step lower than normal, it was OK, as we were all tune. A lot of people have no sense of pitch or what a proper tuning is, especially amateur musicians, as I assume most singing or playing in a tavern at the time would be (and I am only referring to the impromptu entertainment, not a group of professionals).

[Jack Roberts]

Oh true, I guess that's what I meant but didn't really say that. I wouldn't think they would know exactly what pitch they we're in but at least try to be in tune with each other. But I agree with you Hurricane.

[William Brand]

Capt J is looking for some sheet music with chords for guitar. We really need some campfire music from the period.

[William Brand]

[William Brand]

[Capn Bob]

Had no idea that German "Augustin" song went back that far. Herr Schmidt taught that to us, back when I was living on base in Illesheim. Well, scupper me hide...

[MarkG]

Capt J is looking for some sheet music with chords for guitar. We really need some campfire music from the period.

For those in the western Ohio area, the Kitchen Musicians usually come to the Faire at New Boston on Labor Day weekend. All of these pieces and more can be bought from them there.

[Fox]

Thanks William, some great tunes.

Just a word to the authenti-minded, a handful of them are too late for GAoP. The Faery Dance and Farewell to Whisky were both composed by Neil Gow, who was born in 1727 (and started playing the fiddle in 1740 if the legends are true). The Firth of Cromartie is attributed to his sons. Come O'er the Stream Charlie is almost certainly a Jacobite tune from the 1740s or later.

[William Brand]

Thanks William, some great tunes.

Just a word to the authenti-minded, a handful of them are too late for GAoP. The Faery Dance and Farewell to Whisky were both composed by Neil Gow, who was born in 1727 (and started playing the fiddle in 1740 if the legends are true). The Firth of Cromartie is attributed to his sons. Come O'er the Stream Charlie is almost certainly a Jacobite tune from the 1740s or later.

Thank you. I'd rather have period ones posted, so I'll remove those. I find '18th century music' all of the time and it irks me that people seldom list the date.

[MarkG]

Thanks William, some great tunes.

Just a word to the authenti-minded, a handful of them are too late for GAoP. The Faery Dance and Farewell to Whisky were both composed by Neil Gow, who was born in 1727 (and started playing the fiddle in 1740 if the legends are true). The Firth of Cromartie is attributed to his sons. Come O'er the Stream Charlie is almost certainly a Jacobite tune from the 1740s or later.

Anything from the Beggar's Opera should be appropriate for the late end of the GAoP. It was published in 1728 and used popular broadside music from a few years earlier.

[Fox]

Anything from the Beggar's Opera should be appropriate for the late end of the GAoP. It was published in 1728 and used popular broadside music from a few years earlier.

The Beggar's Opera is also a great source, but not without its caveats. Off the top of my head I'm fairly sure that at least a couple of old tunes had new words written for the BO, but I'd have to check which ones. Also, the BO was added to and 'improved' throughout the 18th century, so you have to be careful which edition you use.

[jendobyns]

Anything from the Beggar's Opera should be appropriate for the late end of the GAoP. It was published in 1728 and used popular broadside music from a few years earlier.

The Beggar's Opera is also a great source, but not without its caveats. Off the top of my head I'm fairly sure that at least a couple of old tunes had new words written for the BO, but I'd have to check which ones. Also, the BO was added to and 'improved' throughout the 18th century, so you have to be careful which edition you use.

Oh, yes, very good point. I don't think I'd use my CW "reproduction", for example. Or definitely filter out the parts that are too late.

[Brit.Privateer]

Now, I wonder about the reason for the lack of earlier shanties.

I think one reason for this lack of earlier shanties is putting into context when people collected a lot of the folk songs and stories, the nineteenth century (or rather, the "long" nineteenth century from the French Revolution Era to when World War I began). During this time, noticeable numbers of people began to collect up songs and stories during this time and publishing them (I think a lot of people here have heard of the Brothers Grimm). I suspect that this plays a role in the lack of songs from the earlier periods. I would imagine that we get songs that have their origins in the late eighteenth and the greater nineteenth century because those were the songs being sung during that time, so the collectors would have grabbed those up more often. In addition, there is what I like to call the "curse of the long nineteenth century." It seems that the nineteenth century will always have a significant influence on how history is perceived. So many people published histories during the long nineteenth century on a variety of different subjects, especially as we get into the later half of the long nineteenth century. But, historians of this period did not have the advantages that current historians have today.

Historians in the past did not have easy access to databases online and online library catalogs and digital transfer of documents from one side of the earth to another within seconds. History study required traveling to and digging into archives and libraries with a index card at most for a guide without having that much knowledge if their time will produce anything. So, with limited materials, people wrote histories. As a result, some histories has serious errors in them due to lack of resources or sources that many years later would prove questionable or inaccurate became primary sources. For pirate history, Charles Johnson's History of Pyrates is a prime example, for this book was frequently used and outright copied in various nineteenth and early twentieth century histories of pirates. In addition, the novel writers, playwrights, and artists of the long nineteenth century significantly influence our perception of pirates, even to this day. I mean, just look at a Howard Pyle pirate painting and see how our current images can still relate back to those paintings. Look at how influential the novel Treasure Island is. Also look at plays like the Pirates of Penzance and Peter Pan influenced as well. But I digress...

...But I would say the reason for few songs and shanties from the early eighteenth century can be attributed to when a lot of songs and stories were collected. So, when popular culture and Hollywood wants a song that has a maritime taste to it, its easier to pull our a book of nineteenth century song than actually going and digging for a period song.

[Fox]

I was going to start a seperate thread for this, but since others have been showing off period instruments I figured here was as good a place as any.

Today I got around to stringing the 17thC fiddle I've been busy assembling over the last few weeks.

I turned this pile of stuff:

Into this:

(And the back's quite pretty too...)

I may play around with the soundpost a bit, but it's got a pretty nice tone and plays well

[Slopmaker Cripps]

I was going to start a seperate thread for this, but since others have been showing off period instruments I figured here was as good a place as any.

Today I got around to stringing the 17thC fiddle I've been busy assembling over the last few weeks.

I turned this pile of stuff:

Into this:

(And the back's quite pretty too...)

I may play around with the soundpost a bit, but it's got a pretty nice tone and plays well

Dang it, Foxe! You beat me to the punch....I've got a fiddle in the works myself! You did a grand job with it....is she a conversion or did you start from scratch? What did you use for the finish? It's pretty....

-Adam C.

[Fox]

I'd love to say I started from scratch, but I bought the body and neck 'in the white', and all the fittings and trimmings. Basically I assembled a 'kit' from different sources. I just had to fit it all together, ream the peg-holes to fit etc, finish it, and set it up.

The finish is a light violin varnish; one thinned coat and two un-thinned coats, then the whole french polished.

[Cuisto Mako]

Very Nice! Congrats!

[Cuisto Mako]

you have put modern strings on it?

[Capt. Sterling]

Geeze Ed... very, very nice

[Fox]

you have put modern strings on it?

Yes and no.

I had a great deal of heartache over the strings. I wanted to put gut strings on, as they were certainly the most common, but my general playing preference is for steel, plus I expect to take the fiddle into damp fields and who-knows-where, so the inherent responsiveness of gut to climate and atmosphere put me off. I thought about synthetic strings which have a similar sound to gut without the weaknesses, but they're not right so I figured if I was going to have not-right strings then I might as well have steel. While I was pondering this problem I came across a reference in John Evelyn's diary to 'wire' viola strings (1678 I think), so steel it is. Steel strings on other instruments are recorded from the 16th century - I'm thinking primarily of citterns - but I'd never seen a reference to steel fiddle strings this early until I looked. They are, of course, 'modern' steel strings, and I must confess that I have no knowledge of what 'period' steel strings should be like (but I'm guessing probably not ball-end).

[Cuisto Mako]

No they would not be ball-end but rather hand made loop end and possibly made of brass wire like on the cittern

Aquilla makes amazing nylgut strings for plucked instrument, they look a lot closer to gut string than nylon, sounds very nice and are way more reliable regarding climate change and humidity than gut string.

I don't know if they make some for violin though

[Fox]

Somewhere there was a thread about pochettes, or dancing masters' fiddles, in the golden age, but I can't find it now, so I'm going to post this photo of a pochette I just made here instead...

[Jib]

Any suggestions for CDs that feature this kind/ genre of music?

[jendobyns]

Any suggestions for CDs that feature this kind/ genre of music?

Of dance music or period music? There are cd's of music from the period, and some are from people who have specialized in colonial music. I am having a mental block on the one person I have in mine but will locate his cd's and let you know.