Music in a Period Tavern

[Hawkyns]

I've got one of the City Waites CDs. I've also got a couple of CDs of period 17th c broadside music. And one more called "Naughty and Bawdy songs of Olde England"- it's actually quite explicit. They were common in the 17th c reenactment camps and we'd sing them at most musters. Not so popular in the pirate world, though. I'll bring my songbooks to PiP. Hopefully we can change some minds about what we should be singing.

Hawkyns

[Elena]

Guitars of all kind (Spanish guitars, cuatro llanero from Nueva Granada, requinto jarocho or jarana from Mexico, that French/ Breton thing which is not guitar, nor fiddle we have talked already about in another thread), a kind of harp used in Wales or Ireland, flutes and fifes of all kinds, were the appropriate instruments for the Caribbean Age of Sail music.

[hurricane]

I think the point was that while there were guitars, they aren't the six string acoustics we play or even remotely similar. And I've seen some playing acoustic/electrics that would look more at home with The Beatles. I know of no references to one ever being aboard ship, as was noted earlier, it would have been fiddles, drums, horns and perhaps a fluted instrument of some type.

My whole original point is that most musicians who show up at events are re-enacting the music correctly, either because of incorrect instrumentation, modern arrangements, different melodic structures or contemporary playing styles. I fall into this category, certainly, as I play an tenor guitar which wasn't even invented until the 20s, 1920s that is. But I don't pretend to be representing the period style of music, either.

Hawkyns, I so hope I can check out your resources while at PiP. They sound wonderful!

-- Hurricane

[hurricane]

I think the point was that while there were guitars, they aren't the six string acoustics we play or even remotely similar. It's akin to saying a modern trumpet can stand in for a horn of the times. And I've seen some playing acoustic/electrics that would look more at home with The Beatles. I know of no references to one ever being aboard ship, as was noted earlier, it would have been fiddles, drums, horns and perhaps a fluted instrument of some type.

My whole original point is that most musicians who show up at events are re-enacting the music correctly, either because of incorrect instrumentation, modern arrangements, different melodic structures or contemporary playing styles. I fall into this category, certainly, as I play an tenor guitar which wasn't even invented until the 20s, 1920s that is. But I don't pretend to be representing the period style of music, either.

Hawkyns, I so hope I can check out your resources while at PiP. They sound wonderful!

-- Hurricane

[Red_Dawn]

Yes but those are baroque guitar. It doesn't sound or look like a modern acoustic or classical guitar at all.

I found a bunch of YouTube vidoes of baroque guitars. They're higher pitched than the modern guitar.

Maybe it's just the tune, but this one almost sounds like a banjo. Very nice, though.

And concerning the lyrics Grymm posted, I've been told that political satire and bawd songs were popular in Paris. Assuming I was told right (and understood right), it looks like this was an international phenomenon.

[Captain Jim]

Nice finds, those vids. I note that both are "ten-strings" arranged in pairs similar to the modern 12-string. I would also point to Vermeer's "The Guitar Player" (1672), a woman (!) playing something very similar to what would be called a "parlor" guitar in the late 1800's right up to the 1930's .

I used to have a 1920's Gibson parlor, very small but had a big voice. Stylistically not so different except for the sound hole rosette of the baroque instruments which bordered on the insanely ornate:

Edited November 22, 2010 by Captain Jim

[Cuisto Mako]

actually another very important difference between a baroque guitar and even a small parlor guitar from the 1920s is that the baroque guitar as no raised finger board and the fretts are made of gut tied around the neck. The brigde also doesn't raised the strings either, so the strings feel a bit more loose than a classical guitar.

[hurricane]

The differences a baroque "guitar" and a modern guitar are many. I think this article really explains it well.

http://www3.uakron.edu/gfaa/stalking.html

Cuisto alluded to many of the differences and this article does a good job or going a step or two further. As any guitar player knows, there's a huge difference in playing an instrument with 10 gut strings and tied frets and a six string fretted instrument that is tuned in a standard tuning, which previous instruments didn't have the benefit of. It's akin to the differences in playing a tenor banjo and a plectrum. Very different animals with different results.

[hurricane]

The differences a baroque "guitar" and a modern guitar are many. I think this article really explains it well.

http://www3.uakron.edu/gfaa/stalking.html

Cuisto alluded to many of the differences and this article does a good job or going a step or two further. As any guitar player knows, there's a huge difference in playing an instrument with 10 gut strings and tied frets and a six string fretted instrument that is tuned in a standard tuning, which previous instruments didn't have the benefit of. It's akin to saying that a bugle and the trumpet are the same. They share some common heritage, but you don't play them the same way.

[jendobyns]

Yes but those are baroque guitar. It doesn't sound or look like a modern acoustic or classical guitar at all.

I found a bunch of YouTube vidoes of baroque guitars. They're higher pitched than the modern guitar.

Maybe it's just the tune, but this one almost sounds like a banjo. Very nice, though.

And concerning the lyrics Grymm posted, I've been told that political satire and bawd songs were popular in Paris. Assuming I was told right (and understood right), it looks like this was an international phenomenon.

Those are just lovely! Any idea if the first player has recordings available other than on YouTube?

Definitely more of a period sound and tempo.

[William Brand]

The name of the first fellow is Trond Bengston, and unfortunately he doesn't have any albums out that I can find.

[William Brand]

For those who play, here is a site offering free sheet music by Robert de Visee (1680-1720). Some of the links are dead, but I was able to download 6 of the pdfs.

http://creativeguitar.org/sheet-music/visee-robert-de

[Slopmaker Cripps]

http://earlyguitar.ning.com/

I'm currently building my first one....

Cheers,

Adam C.

[Red_Dawn]

actually another very important difference between a baroque guitar and even a small parlor guitar from the 1920s is that the baroque guitar as no raised finger board and the fretts are made of gut tied around the neck.

So would a guitarist need to retie the frets every once in a while?

[Cuisto Mako]

actually another very important difference between a baroque guitar and even a small parlor guitar from the 1920s is that the baroque guitar as no raised finger board and the fretts are made of gut tied around the neck.

So would a guitarist need to retie the frets every once in a while?

Usually you won't have to rety it but you will need to correct the position sometime. And once in a while one will brake and you'll need to tie a new one

here is a picture of mine:

I just saw yesterday on ebay that you can get a cheap baroque guitar made in Pakistan for around 700$ Pretty good price for a student instrument considering the average price is 3000-4000$

[MarkG]

The differences a baroque "guitar" and a modern guitar are many. I think this article really explains it well.

http://www3.uakron.e...a/stalking.html

Cuisto alluded to many of the differences and this article does a good job or going a step or two further. As any guitar player knows, there's a huge difference in playing an instrument with 10 gut strings and tied frets and a six string fretted instrument that is tuned in a standard tuning, which previous instruments didn't have the benefit of. It's akin to the differences in playing a tenor banjo and a plectrum. Very different animals with different results.

A friend who plays the lute says that the gut frets drive her crazy.

Mark

[LadyBarbossa]

Oh, how I would LOVE to hear more period music with knowledgeable musicians in a more period style tavern setting rather than some modern style looking beer tent with musicians dress poorly as pirates or in jeans and some pirate looking t-shirt singing more modern style pirate songs.

The only closest I have experinced a period tavern, was at a Rev War event here in the Midwest, the White Horn Tavern is a mobile tavern but you provide games, drink, song, etc. And it works out fantasticly! And ALWAYS busy. :) Need more of these taverns rather some make-shift beer tent with a cheesy pirate theme.

Keep any songs or info coming! I'm enjoying it greatly!

~Lady B

[Jack Roberts]

I'll try to remember to pack my penny whistle for PiP. It's in the key of D and I can play in G also.

One thing that I find interesting is the difference in pitch from the centuries. From I what I've been able to gather during the baroque period, most of the instruments tuned about a half step lower than what we would tune to today.

Meaning our modern sounds are a bit higher in intonation. Of course there wasn't a standard then and pitch could (and most likely would)change depending on the location. Heck I would think it would depend even more so on the groups of musicians playing. Being in tune amongst themselves.

[Capt Thighbiter]

The pitch has indeed been rising over the centuries. In fact, bagpipe are the most singular example of this. As any one who has tried to play with pipes knows, they are pitched in B flat. But not really. Not quite B flat, not quite A, and one must tune to the pipes. The reason for this is that over the last two centuries, pipe players have asked the pipe makers to pitch the pipes slightly higher then concert A ( 440Hz), in order to stand out more in a group. Decades and decades of this has resulted in bagpipes being pitched between the two notes (closer to B flat though).

Issac Stern, the notable virtuoso violin player, regularly tunes to 442-443 in order to stand out from the rest of the orchestra.

Dont even get started on temperament, which is how each scale is tempered to suit the pitch. Look up well tempered scales in Wiki, and you will understand why pitch is relative.

[MarkG]

I'll try to remember to pack my penny whistle for PiP. It's in the key of D and I can play in G also.

One thing that I find interesting is the difference in pitch from the centuries. From I what I've been able to gather during the baroque period, most of the instruments tuned about a half step lower than what we would tune to today.

Meaning our modern sounds are a bit higher in intonation. Of course there wasn't a standard then and pitch could (and most likely would)change depending on the location. Heck I would think it would depend even more so on the groups of musicians playing. Being in tune amongst themselves.

That's right, Many instruments were tuned with A somewhere between 395 and 415 instead of the modern 440. Some solo instruments were tuned higher. The clavichord is too quiet to play with other instruments and some of these were tuned higher than modern scale. That gave them a brighter sound and coxed a bit more sound out of the brass strings.

The scale was also subtly different. Modern scales are mathematically precise and instruments are able to play multiple keys. Previously instruments were optimized for common keys and the sharps/flats were adjusted to sound better. In these scales, a C sharp was slightly different from a D flat. Bach's "well tempered" was a different tuning.

Mark

[Fox]

John Playford, in Musick's Delight on the Cithren (London, 1666), suggests that the best way to tune a cittern is to tighten the top string as high as it'll go without being in danger of snapping, and to tune all of the other strings relative to that. So absolutely no standard tuning at all.

[Cuisto Mako]

John Playford, in Musick's Delight on the Cithren (London, 1666), suggests that the best way to tune a cittern is to tighten the top string as high as it'll go without being in danger of snapping, and to tune all of the other strings relative to that. So absolutely no standard tuning at all.

That's true, but at the same time the baroque orchestra of that era was made of between 20 and 30 musicians so they did tune their instruments to a specific pitch. The cittern it is true was rarelly part of such ensemble.

[Fox]

That's true, but at the same time the baroque orchestra of that era was made of between 20 and 30 musicians so they did tune their instruments to a specific pitch. The cittern it is true was rarelly part of such ensemble.

Yes indeed, but earlier the cittern had been a usual member of the 'broken consort', so presumably at some point was tuned in pitch with other instruments. I wasn't suggesting that nobody played in a common pitch, only that it wasn't necessarily universal for solo musicians.

[Capn Bob]

I can picture a pack of pirates, assembled together in a shoddy tavern somewhere, towards the end of the Golden Age, belting out (possibly in a drunken roar) "Fill Ev'ry Glass". I suspect they'd be singing the popular songs of the period, the ruder the better...something like "Oyster Nan".

Lyrics to Oyster Nan here, decidedly not workplace safe:

Oyster Nan

And the aforesaid "Fill Ev'ry Glass"? Here's a version:

[Jack Roberts]

True, once you begin to play with other instruments and musicians you need to tune to something. I don't think they were tone deaf 300 years ago... The more you play the better your ear is trained to pitch and tuning. So once your playing with others you would notice this even more. I agree with you Foxe that soloists would do whatever sounds right to the player.