Music in a Period Tavern

[Fox]

But, of course, we want to think we can come close, just as we think we're close singing chanteys from the whaling area ... How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins are believed to be from around 1858 and no one is really sure of its melody.

They were brash, bold and complete, well whores. ...How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins...

Agreed. Come to this side of the pond Hurricane, I'll see your Old Maui and raise you Hanging Johnny...

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

Agreed on the singing. There are plenty of period tavern songs that we could be singing, The Trooper Watering His Nag comes to mind, or Back and Sides Go Bare. But we have this twitch that sailors sing chanties, even when most of them date to 19th C whaling. That's a hard one to deal with. Unfortunately, most of the pirate bands out there perpetuate the myth. If it's Irish or about sailing, it must be period, so we'll put it on our CD. Strikes me we need to do some serious reeducation in this regard.

While this is getting way off topic, I'd like to add a thought or two about shanties.

Firstly, there are some jolly good shanties that aren't necessarily whaling songs, but I certainly agree that most of them, and all of the better known ones, date from the 19th century, or, at best, possibly the very late 18th. Either way, they're out of period.

Now, I wonder about the reason for the lack of earlier shanties. It has been suggested that earlier sailors didn't really sing them, but it seems unlikely that one day in 1785 a sailor said "gee, I know we've been at this for hundreds of years, but this work would be so much easier if we did a bit of singing", and there are at least some sailors' work chants that go back to the medieval and Tudor periods, some of which may have been tuneful. I suspect the real reason for a lack of early shanties is that there was less of a distinction between working songs and social songs in the earlier periods. Three Poor Mariners, for example, is a song that turns up in collections from the early 17thC onwards, but has many characteristics of a later shanty (it's easy to bawl, has an easy to remember chorus, and can easily be accompanied by foot-stomping) so, despite its presence in popular singing books and setting to a popular dance tune, might very easily have been sung at sea as a work song. An alternative idea, given the stated importance of musicians in pirate crews, might be that sailors worked to music, but without necessarily singing: however, not every crew had a musician present, so it seems likely that singing would have taken their place.

[jollyjacktar]

@ Foxe and Hurricane,

The Famous Fight at Malago is my favorite fallback tavern song but it's not one most people are gung ho about joining in on....

Now as far the the existence of shanties in the 17th century there is a quote from a Dominican Friar Felix Fabri, the text was written in 1493 and published in 1498, about one of his many pilgrimages, I've got the whole manuscript on a flash drive somewhere, but he makes references to sailors doing all kind of singing. He mentions Helmsmans singing songs while watching the compass and talks about older sailors ( he named them mariners) leading songs during work, this last bit I found so interesting becasue he uses the phrase "in concert" which I always took to mean in the call and response style.

Yours & co

CJ

[Mission]

Since these two topics have started diverging so widely, I decided to go ahead and create a separate topic. Because the original discussion was intertwined with the discussion on behavior in a period pub, I copied the relevant quotes and stuck them at the top in Foxe's first post so that it makes linear sense.

Sorry about the mess.

[MarkG]

But, of course, we want to think we can come close, just as we think we're close singing chanteys from the whaling area ... How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins are believed to be from around 1858 and no one is really sure of its melody.

They were brash, bold and complete, well whores. ...How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins...

Agreed. Come to this side of the pond Hurricane, I'll see your Old Maui and raise you Hanging Johnny...

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

Agreed on the singing. There are plenty of period tavern songs that we could be singing, The Trooper Watering His Nag comes to mind, or Back and Sides Go Bare. But we have this twitch that sailors sing chanties, even when most of them date to 19th C whaling. That's a hard one to deal with. Unfortunately, most of the pirate bands out there perpetuate the myth. If it's Irish or about sailing, it must be period, so we'll put it on our CD. Strikes me we need to do some serious reeducation in this regard.

While this is getting way off topic, I'd like to add a thought or two about shanties.

Firstly, there are some jolly good shanties that aren't necessarily whaling songs, but I certainly agree that most of them, and all of the better known ones, date from the 19th century, or, at best, possibly the very late 18th. Either way, they're out of period.

Now, I wonder about the reason for the lack of earlier shanties. It has been suggested that earlier sailors didn't really sing them, but it seems unlikely that one day in 1785 a sailor said "gee, I know we've been at this for hundreds of years, but this work would be so much easier if we did a bit of singing", and there are at least some sailors' work chants that go back to the medieval and Tudor periods, some of which may have been tuneful. I suspect the real reason for a lack of early shanties is that there was less of a distinction between working songs and social songs in the earlier periods. Three Poor Mariners, for example, is a song that turns up in collections from the early 17thC onwards, but has many characteristics of a later shanty (it's easy to bawl, has an easy to remember chorus, and can easily be accompanied by foot-stomping) so, despite its presence in popular singing books and setting to a popular dance tune, might very easily have been sung at sea as a work song. An alternative idea, given the stated importance of musicians in pirate crews, might be that sailors worked to music, but without necessarily singing: however, not every crew had a musician present, so it seems likely that singing would have taken their place.

At least some of the time they had musicians playing instead of someone singing. That's why musicians are mentioned in pirate articles. I've seen speculation that the most common instrument was the fiddle.

Mark

[Fox]

At least some of the time they had musicians playing instead of someone singing.

Agreed, probably.

That's why musicians are mentioned in pirate articles.

Only one set to my recollection

I've seen speculation that the most common instrument was the fiddle.

Fiddles and drums are, I think, the most common instruments mentioned in contemporary sources.

[hurricane]

There in lies part of the problem in recreating a period pub with music. Guitars wouldn't have been around, certainly not in their present form. The concertina wasn't invented until 1829. It makes me crazy to see a supposed period performance with an electric bass or guitar. Few people want to listen to a fiddle and a drum together (or even apart, in some instances :). And an exact recreation of the music wouldn't really be very audience friendly. Let's face it, a bunch of drunks singing off key isn't that interesting. You can see that at a local karaoke bar.

Hurricane

[Dorian Lasseter]

I would think a pipe of some sort, penny whistle, flute, etc wouldn't be out of place as well... nice and compact, but would it be allowed because of the possibility of confusion with the boatswain's call?

In a tavern, in a fine establishment, you might see an harpsichord (sp?)... Maybe?

A couple years back at an F&I reenactment, some of my compatriots gave a concert. It consisted of three Violins, a Viola (I think) and a drum. It was quite nice. And, if you like Baroque music, I suggest Red Priest http://www.piersadams.com/RedPriest/

[hurricane]

That would have been cool, sir. I think that would be an amazing experience to hear that set up with just candlelight. I'll check out Red Priest - love Baroque.

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

I can sing and am not too off key when drunk, it is the research that kills me. I am sure there is some reference material out there but finding and keeping records of it is work that I have never been very persistent with. Since I am not a sailor any songs from the time would work ...if I like to sing them. Anyone out there want to just hand me the completer research?

[Dorian Lasseter]

That would have been cool, sir. I think that would be an amazing experience to hear that set up with just candlelight. I'll check out Red Priest - love Baroque.

-- Hurricane

It was fantastic...

Yes, I know the Bodhran is OOP, even for 1750s, but it worked out nicely...

Edited October 28, 2010 by Dorian Lasseter

[hurricane]

That indeed must have been fantastic.

-- Hurricane

[Grymm]

Then there's the problem with arrangements we lean towards more modern version for e.g.

this is from a period Ms http://www.youtube.c...h?v=T5saIajZ-jg

and this is how most people sing it these days

Some more

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And one of my favs being a bit of a lefty.......http://www.youtube.c...h?v=k_ZhN-bNhtg works well as a work song too =o)

Alt version

I do feel that the power chords on the 'leccy guitar are 'gilding the lilly' heigh ho. Edited October 28, 2010 by Grymm

[Fox]

By an utterly fantastic coincidence, I was just reading through the trial of Charles Harris' crew for something else and this snippet came up showing the importance of musicians:

John Fletcher was forced to join Low's pirates "because he could play on the violin"

From the same trial:

"John Bright was the drummer, and beat upon his Drum on the Round-House in the Engagement"

[Hawkyns]

Then there's the problem with arrangements we lean towards more modern version for And one of my favs being a bit of a lefty.......http://www.youtube.c...h?v=k_ZhN-bNhtg works well as a work song too =o)

Putting aside for the moment the fact that I'm a Royalist officer and this song is treasonous.....

Is there documentation that that is the original tune? I know from the mid 18th c as 'Ye Jacobites by Name". Any idea which came first?

Never knew Chumbawumba did historic stuff. have to look up more.

Hawkyns

[Fox]

The tune is certainly period for GAoP because it was used for two or three other ballads from the period, notably Captain Kid's Farewel to the Seas. The words for the Diggers Song were supposedly written by Winstanley himself, but I have my doubts (it's one of those possibly dubious manuscript issues, and, to me at least, just doesn't 'feel' right), and it wasn't published until the late 19thC.

[Grymm]

The tune is prob'ly not the original for the Digger's song (Early 18thC) but predates the Jaco song which is late 18th (R. Burns rewrite is the most sung)....it is the pro Jaco not the earlier Whiggy anti Jaco version you're on about?

Original post '45 Anti Jaco song

You Jacobites by Name, now give Ear, now give Ear,

You Jacobites by Name, now give Ear;

You Jacobites by Name,

Your Praise I will proclaim,

Some says you are to blame for this Wear. With the Pope you covenant, as they say, as they say,

With the Pope you covenant, as they say,

With the Pope you covenant,

And Letters there you sent,

Which made your Prince present to array.

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth, where they go, where they go,

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth, where they go,

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth,

They're Cumb'rers o' the Earth,

Causing great Hunger and Dearth where they go.

He is the King of Reef, I'll declare, I'll declare,

He is the King of Reef, I'll declare,

He is the King of Reef,

Of a Robber and o' Thief,

To rest void of Relief when he's near.

They marched thro' our Land cruelly, cruelly,

They marched thro' our Land cruelly,

They marched thro' our Land

With a bloody thievish Band

To Edinburgh then they wan Treachery.

To Preston then they came, in a Rout, in a Rout,

To Preston then they came, in a Rout;

To Preston then they came,

Brave Gard'ner murd'red then.

A Traitor did command, as we doubt.

To England then they went, as bold, as bold,

To England then they went, as bold;

To England then they went,

And Carlisle they ta'en't,

The Crown they fain would ha'en't, but behold.

You Jacobites by Name, now give Ear, now give Ear,

You Jacobites by Name, now give Ear;

You Jacobites by Name,

Your Praise I will proclaim,

Some says you are to blame for this Wear. With the Pope you covenant, as they say, as they say,

With the Pope you covenant, as they say,

With the Pope you covenant,

And Letters there you sent,

Which made your Prince present to array.

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth, where they go, where they go,

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth, where they go,

Your Prince and Duke o'Perth,

They're Cumb'rers o' the Earth,

Causing great Hunger and Dearth where they go.

He is the King of Reef, I'll declare, I'll declare,

He is the King of Reef, I'll declare,

He is the King of Reef,

Of a Robber and o' Thief,

To rest void of Relief when he's near.

They marched thro' our Land cruelly, cruelly,

They marched thro' our Land cruelly,

They marched thro' our Land

With a bloody thievish Band

To Edinburgh then they wan Treachery.

To Preston then they came, in a Rout, in a Rout,

To Preston then they came, in a Rout;

To Preston then they came,

Brave Gard'ner murd'red then.

A Traitor did command, as we doubt.

To England then they went, as bold, as bold,

To England then they went, as bold;

To England then they went,

And Carlisle they ta'en't,

The Crown they fain would ha'en't, but behold.

To London as they went, on the Way, on the Way,

To London as they went, on the way,

To London as they went,

In a Trap did there present,

No battle they will stent, for to die. They turned from that Place, and they ran, and they ran,

They turned from that Place, and they ran;

They turned from that Place

As the Fox, when Hounds do chace.

They tremble at the Name, CUMBERLAN'.

To Scotland then they came, when they fly, when they fly,

To Scotland then they came, when they fly,

To Scotland then they came,

And they robb'd on every Hand,

By Jacobites Command, where they ly.

When Duke William does command, you must go, you must go;

When Duke William does command, you must go;

When Duke William does command,

Then you must leave the Land,

Your Conscience in your Hand like a Crow.

Tho' Carlisle ye took by the Way, by the Way;

Tho' Carlisle ye took by the Way;

Tho' Carlisle ye took,

Short Space ye did it Brook,

These Rebels got a Rope on a Day.

The Pope and Prelacy, where they came, where they came,

The Pope and Prelacy, where they came;

The Pope and Prelacy,

They rul'd with Cruelty,

They ought to hing on high for the same.

[Grymm]

The Bod (Got me a readers ticket =o) soooooooo happy) has a collection of Ballads and Broadsides http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/

and the Childs collection http://www.sacred-te.../neu/eng/child/

Cecil Sharpe collection has some bits online and if you've a musical bent well worth a visit http://www.efdss.org...rary-online/115 almost in Camden Market so if you're in London send the other half round Camden and you go there =o)

This should take you to a 1720 book of songs and tunes Wit and mirth: or, Pills to purge melancholy There's some right smut in y'ere ;o)

Song book of 1609 Deuteromelia which includes one of my fav boozing and shouting out of toon toons which I know as

Jolly Red Nose

Of all the birds that ever I see

the Owl is the fairest in her degree

for all the day long she sits in a tree

and when the night comes

away flys she.

To whit, to woo, to whom drinks thou

Sir Knave, to you

This song is well sung; I make you a vow

and he is a knave that drinkuth now

Nose, nose, jolly red nose

and who gave thee that jolly red nose

Cinamin, ginger, nutmeg and cloves

and that gave me my jolly red nose

I care for no fool whose purse is not full

But he that have money I never find dull

and if he still have it when hence he duth go

I'll trample my tankard and never drink mo'

A rat, a roo, to whom drinks thou

Sir knave, to you

This song is well sung; I make you a vow

and he is a knave that drinkuth now

Nose, nose, jolly red nose

and who gave thee that jolly red nose

Cinamin, ginger, nutmeg and cloves

and that gave me my jolly red nose

I'll not have a maiden that's never been tried

but give me a wonton to lie by my side

and this have I used as the rule of my life

That wonton is best that's another man's wife

coockoo, coockoo to whom drinks thou

Sir knave, to you

This song is well sung; I make you a vow

and he is a knave that drinkuth now

Nose, nose, jolly red nose

and who gave thee that jolly red nose

Cinamin, ginger, nutmeg and cloves

and that gave me my jolly red nose

Edited October 28, 2010 by Grymm

[Grymm]

Wit and Mirth Vol 1

vol 4

Vol 3

vol 5

All pub 1719

The one in the above post is vol 6 so just missing vol 2......I'll find the wee bugger though.

And more songs to the tune alluded to by that Cunning Mr Foxe http://davidkidd.net...ptain_Kidd.html

Edited to add Hooray! Volume 2

Edited April 13, 2011 by Grymm

[jendobyns]

This just in from someone on the English Country Dance list, where they're talking about lyrics that go with Playford dances.

"I have two CD's by the City Waites that have lyrics for Playford tunes

including Lilibullero, Jamaica, Lumps of Pudding, The Gelding of the Devil and Sellinger's Round. Many of the songs seem to have been published in "Pills to Purge Melancholy rather than Playford."

So if you want to pull up the links Grymm provided, and plug in a CD to sing along (and practice for PiP?) this might be an optionAnd I like Baroque music, too, just not when it's played at light speed. It simply looses some of the baroque feel to me then. Kind of like when a minuet gets turned into a waltz.

Edited October 28, 2010 by jendobyns

[MarkG]

<br>There in lies part of the problem in recreating a period pub with music. Guitars wouldn't have been around, certainly not in their present form. The concertina wasn't invented until 1829. It makes me crazy to see a supposed period performance with an electric bass or guitar. Few people want to listen to a fiddle and a drum together (or even apart, in some instances :). And an exact recreation of the music wouldn't really be very audience friendly. Let's face it, a bunch of drunks singing off key isn't that interesting. You can see that at a local karaoke bar.  <img src="https://pyracy.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""> <br><br>Hurricane<br>

<br><br>The Spanish Guitar ha been around long enough to become a folk instrument by the GAoP. Recorders and flutes were very common.<br><br>The art of David Teniers is a good resource for taverns. He shows lutes, fiddles, guitars and flutes. You can see some of his works <a href="http://www.klassiskgitar.net/imagest1.html">here</a>.<br><br>Mark<br><br><br>

[MarkG]

Then there's the problem with arrangements we lean towards more modern version for And one of my favs being a bit of a lefty.......http://www.youtube.c...h?v=k_ZhN-bNhtg works well as a work song too =o)

Putting aside for the moment the fact that I'm a Royalist officer and this song is treasonous.....

Is there documentation that that is the original tune? I know from the mid 18th c as 'Ye Jacobites by Name". Any idea which came first?

Never knew Chumbawumba did historic stuff. have to look up more.

Hawkyns

Robert Burns wrote the most familiar works using an older tune.

Mark

[Cuisto Mako]

<br>There in lies part of the problem in recreating a period pub with music. Guitars wouldn't have been around, certainly not in their present form. The concertina wasn't invented until 1829. It makes me crazy to see a supposed period performance with an electric bass or guitar. Few people want to listen to a fiddle and a drum together (or even apart, in some instances :). And an exact recreation of the music wouldn't really be very audience friendly. Let's face it, a bunch of drunks singing off key isn't that interesting. You can see that at a local karaoke bar.  <img src="https://pyracy.com/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""> <br><br>Hurricane<br>

<br><br>The Spanish Guitar ha been around long enough to become a folk instrument by the GAoP. Recorders and flutes were very common.<br><br>The art of David Teniers is a good resource for taverns. He shows lutes, fiddles, guitars and flutes. You can see some of his works <a href="http://www.klassiskgitar.net/imagest1.html">here</a>.<br><br>Mark<br><br><br>

Yes but those are baroque guitar. It doesn't sound or look like a modern acoustic or classical guitar at all.

[capn'rob]

But, of course, we want to think we can come close, just as we think we're close singing chanteys from the whaling area ... How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins are believed to be from around 1858 and no one is really sure of its melody.

They were brash, bold and complete, well whores. ...How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins...

Agreed. Come to this side of the pond Hurricane, I'll see your Old Maui and raise you Hanging Johnny...

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

Agreed on the singing. There are plenty of period tavern songs that we could be singing, The Trooper Watering His Nag comes to mind, or Back and Sides Go Bare. But we have this twitch that sailors sing chanties, even when most of them date to 19th C whaling. That's a hard one to deal with. Unfortunately, most of the pirate bands out there perpetuate the myth. If it's Irish or about sailing, it must be period, so we'll put it on our CD. Strikes me we need to do some serious reeducation in this regard.

While this is getting way off topic, I'd like to add a thought or two about shanties.

Firstly, there are some jolly good shanties that aren't necessarily whaling songs, but I certainly agree that most of them, and all of the better known ones, date from the 19th century, or, at best, possibly the very late 18th. Either way, they're out of period.

Now, I wonder about the reason for the lack of earlier shanties. It has been suggested that earlier sailors didn't really sing them, but it seems unlikely that one day in 1785 a sailor said "gee, I know we've been at this for hundreds of years, but this work would be so much easier if we did a bit of singing", and there are at least some sailors' work chants that go back to the medieval and Tudor periods, some of which may have been tuneful. I suspect the real reason for a lack of early shanties is that there was less of a distinction between working songs and social songs in the earlier periods. Three Poor Mariners, for example, is a song that turns up in collections from the early 17thC onwards, but has many characteristics of a later shanty (it's easy to bawl, has an easy to remember chorus, and can easily be accompanied by foot-stomping) so, despite its presence in popular singing books and setting to a popular dance tune, might very easily have been sung at sea as a work song. An alternative idea, given the stated importance of musicians in pirate crews, might be that sailors worked to music, but without necessarily singing: however, not every crew had a musician present, so it seems likely that singing would have taken their place.

The issue can also be taken in that "Chanties" or "Shanties", the name some believe to have derived from "work chant", were Only sung while work was being done. If the Yard was Two Blocks, you didn't hang around singing until the verses were all heard. The Shanty was a Tool, no less than a Slush Bucket or a Fid. For the Sailor's entertainment there were songs sung before the mast known as "foc's'l tunes" or "Forebitters". They also would sing songs popular of the period. Fiddles and in some ships, banjos went to sea. However, this age of sailor was at the earliest I'm aware of in the late 18th century.

[theM.A.dDogge]

so since the subject has been brought up.....

does anyone have a good list of

period tavern songs?

period work chanties?

instruments appropriate for either?

songs/instruments that inappropraite for period?

i am "musically illiterate" and would like to be pushed in the right direction....

[Mad Zan]

Out of the Ordinary Music

The soft strain of beautiful music fills our heart, our head and indeed our very soul, at least in memory. A dear friend, Mr. Carroll Ross who is "Among Good Company" hath graced us with "Music for a Convivial Gathering." Aye, 'tis truly the very music one hears in the places convivial folks gather. We recall well the tune, Bring in the Punch Ladle, played by Mr. R's companions Mr. & Mrs. Duffy and their friends. Aye, it assuredly does reckon back to many a most hospitable eve such as Martins Station some months back and other nights, some more memorable than others!

Enjoy

Z