Behaving in a Golden Age Tavern

[Silkie McDonough]

Very true Foxe. Still, the common use of cider, wine etc. points to the fact that even "respectable" persons imbibed regularly.

[jendobyns]

I agree Hawkyns with the eye tainted by modern times. For example, that much cider would be nothing to someone in Port Royal in the late 17th Century...

With this point in mind it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that the standard navy issue was 1 gallon of beer per man per day.

But with my above post in mind, how strong was the beer/cider? A gallon of 2% beer only contains the same amount of alcohol as 2 pints of 8% beer.

A lot of the beer consumed would have been what is called small beer, made out of the leavings from the first or second batch of beer. Gotta squeeze every useful bit out of that barley and hops! It wasn't very alcoholic. I'll see if I can't dig out my notes from the brewing workshop at CW last year. Might not be tonight, but soon.

And beer is like liquid nutrition, where you can't preserve grain, so beer at sea makes sense. Easier to keep it from going "off".

[Fox]

Very true Foxe. Still, the common use of cider, wine etc. points to the fact that even "respectable" persons imbibed regularly.

Absolutely, if by 'regularly' you mean 'daily' Everyone drank.

A lot of the beer consumed would have been what is called small beer, made out of the leavings from the first or second batch of beer. Gotta squeeze every useful bit out of that barley and hops! It wasn't very alcoholic. I'll see if I can't dig out my notes from the brewing workshop at CW last year. Might not be tonight, but soon.

I have long suspected, but struggle to find empirical evidence to prove, that naval ration beer may have been 'small'. If only because it was cheaper.

And beer is like liquid nutrition, where you can't preserve grain, so beer at sea makes sense. Easier to keep it from going "off".

Man cannot live by beer alone, but add brown bread and life is just about sustainable...

[Mission]

Not to get off topic, but...oh, what the hell...

So...seeing this I can't help but wonder; would it be PC for me to wear a mask like that at an event? It would be so cool and we have period evidence...sort of. (Don't even bet I wouldn't do it. You'll lose.)

Speaking of PC (or, perhaps, non-PC)

And beer is like liquid nutrition, where you can't preserve grain, so beer at sea makes sense. Easier to keep it from going "off".

Man cannot live by beer alone, but add brown bread and life is just about sustainable...

This reminded me of a favorite pun I recall reading in the Hart-to-Hart parody in Mad Magazine Issue 224 (July 1981):

Ok, sorry, back to the topic at hand...

[MarkG]

I agree Hawkyns with the eye tainted by modern times. For example, that much cider would be nothing to someone in Port Royal in the late 17th Century. Even the children in town drank beer instead of the water because 1), it had to all be ferried in from the rivers across the bay and 2), it was believed that some of the maladies were caused by the water. So imagine the tolerance levels of alcohol in such an environment. Just to get a buzz would take a fairly good intake of alcohol. And, as we know, when vast amounts of alcohol are introduced, crazy things start to happen, even today. And even today (at least in the places I've been over the years), I've seen more than my share of fights, all out brawls, breasts and penises exposed, vomiting, sex in the bathrooms and several times in the bar itself, and chairs and bottles broken. Why would we think it would be any different back then? Come to think of it, man I've been to some great taverns in my time.

Yes, everyone who could drank beer or other brewed beverage but, most of it was small beer with a very low alcoholic content. In this case, heating the water to brew it killed the germs rather than the alcoholic content.

BTW, they did think that water was unhealthy. One of the complaints from the non-Separatists at the Plymouth colony was that they had to drink water. Governor Bradford's response to this was that it was the healthiest water in the world, as healthy as beer. Since they got their water from small springs, close to the source, this was probably correct.

Mark

[Jib]

Would you assume that a typical tavern carried a selection of beverages or only one?

[Cheeky Actress]

Obtained from my father, here is an account of disorderly conduct in a tavern. The man, John Meckene, is an ancestory of mine, caught up in the 'brawl' in Salem, MA in 1677.

1677: RECORDS AND FILES OF THE QUARTERLY COURTS OF ESSEX COUNTY, MASSACHUSETTS.

From the files of the SALEM Commissioners' court, Dec 5 1677, at Salem:

"Hana, wife of John Mason, was fined or to be whipped for drunkenness, and abusing by words and offering to strike Hen. West, a tithingman. Richard West deposed that he heard an outcry at Mason's house, " the Rogue will Kill me," and going in found it was John Meckene who was much in drink.

Peeter Joy was there and Goody Mason, all drunk, and Joy, after the uproar, owned that he struck Mekene twice. Henry West testified that Mr. Samuell Gardner came along looking for his man and they went in together, whereupon Goody Mason tried to strike him with an andiron, call- ing " thou West, thou Harry, thou Deuill," several times.

Someone took the andiron away from her and then she took up a chair. She was very much in drink, not being able to stand upon her legs, but fell down. Mackene and one Humphry Wilhams were also observed to be much in drink. Urged by Mr. Gardner to do his duty as tithingman, deponent requested assistance of Joy, as he appeared to be the soberest, but he refused.

Sworn in court. Constable Samuell Beadle, Jon. Cook and Walter Skiner deposed that they saw John Makene drunk that day. Goody Mason's bill of cost. John Bly mentioned. Peeter Joy, for refusing to assist Hen. West, tythingman, for drinking, and striking Mackene, was fined, which Mr. Hasket was to pay."

[jendobyns]

Would you assume that a typical tavern carried a selection of beverages or only one?

I think somewhere in Rod Colfield's notes (or perhaps another inventory), there was at least one record of more than one beverage being consumed by a patron. I'm pretty sure from my days working at a historic site that was also a tavern/inn, that multiple beverages were available, as well as food, lodging, fodder for horses, etc.(depending on the establishment). The art work bears this up, in that you can see different types of bottles and punch bowls on some tables in tavern scenes.

[Mission]

Would you assume that a typical tavern carried a selection of beverages or only one?

I think somewhere in Rod Colfield's notes (or perhaps another inventory), there was at least one record of more than one beverage being consumed by a patron. I'm pretty sure from my days working at a historic site that was also a tavern/inn, that multiple beverages were available, as well as food, lodging, fodder for horses, etc.(depending on the establishment). The art work bears this up, in that you can see different types of bottles and punch bowls on some tables in tavern scenes.

Not to be puckish, but this is one of those questions I can't even imagine us needing proof for. Unless there was some cultural more that was so strong and overriding (and thus, probably codified in some sort of law) it would have almost certainly been the case that someone somewhere in the many, many cultures that existed at that time would have hit upon the idea that they could get more customers if they offered variety. And when it worked, others would have taken the idea elsewhere in their travels and the idea would spread virally. (This also assumes that no one had thought of it in the many centuries before in which drinking establishments existed and the deciding point to offer variety occurred in our period.)

[hurricane]

Given regulations, it's probably more restrictive today. A tavern in Washington State, for instance cannot serve hard liquor, only beer and wine. A restaurant lounge can serve anything, but you have to serve food in order to serve hard liquor. I would agree with Mission, you carried what your customers wanted and what you could lay your hands on. Availability was probably the biggest determinant, particularly in the Caribbean.

Edited November 19, 2010 by hurricane

[Red_Dawn]

1677: RECORDS AND FILES OF THE QUARTERLY COURTS OF ESSEX COUNTY, MASSACHUSETTS.

From the files of the SALEM Commissioners' court, Dec 5 1677, at Salem:

"Hana, wife of John Mason, was fined or to be whipped for drunkenness, and abusing by words and offering to strike Hen. West, a tithingman. Richard West deposed that he heard an outcry at Mason's house, " the Rogue will Kill me," and going in found it was John Meckene who was much in drink.

Peeter Joy was there and Goody Mason, all drunk, and Joy, after the uproar, owned that he struck Mekene twice. Henry West testified that Mr. Samuell Gardner came along looking for his man and they went in together, whereupon Goody Mason tried to strike him with an andiron, call- ing " thou West, thou Harry, thou Deuill," several times.

Someone took the andiron away from her and then she took up a chair. She was very much in drink, not being able to stand upon her legs, but fell down. Mackene and one Humphry Wilhams were also observed to be much in drink. Urged by Mr. Gardner to do his duty as tithingman, deponent requested assistance of Joy, as he appeared to be the soberest, but he refused.

Sworn in court. Constable Samuell Beadle, Jon. Cook and Walter Skiner deposed that they saw John Makene drunk that day. Goody Mason's bill of cost. John Bly mentioned. Peeter Joy, for refusing to assist Hen. West, tythingman, for drinking, and striking Mackene, was fined, which Mr. Hasket was to pay."

Am I bad for giggling at this? Once again, truth is cheesier than fiction!

[Jib]

I found some answers to my question that also concurs with what Hurricane posted. In "Mayflower Bastard" a historical account by David Lindsay which follows the life of Plymouth Pilgrim Richard More it mentions beginning around page 166 that More's Salem tavern or "ordinary" served beer, cider (hard cider), and wine. The sale of wine however was limited by law to be sold only to "strangers". Lindsay goes on to say that the term strangers are not residents of Salem. More tends to server mostly sailors and this law is not often enforced. Locals who frequent the tavern are served wine on the sly. Wine seemed to difficult for certain people, mostly for religious reasons, to enjoy.

Didn't know all the gems I'd find in this book when I selected it.

[Mission]

Hmm. While it does make the point, I'd be careful of using Mayflower Bastard as a historical account. From the comments on Amazon, it sounds more like it relies on some bits of historical account with large amounts of speculation thrown into the mix. From the Publisher's Weekly report on Amazon, "In the hands of a deft writer, the resulting fictionalization and speculation can work brilliantly, but this author is, at best, workmanlike." (Italics mine.)

[Cheeky Actress]

Am I bad for giggling at this? Once again, truth is cheesier than fiction!

Sadly...I was told another story about this event...but of course, there is nothing to back it up except family tales and such...like the time my Grandmother told me that our ancestors owned the deed to Rhode Island - yet the document was destroyed when used to make an apple pie. This is the stuff you always take with a grain of salt... (Damn, I'd be living on Mansion Row, on the cliffs, right now).

[Jas. Hook]

Am I bad for giggling at this? Once again, truth is cheesier than fiction!

Sadly...I was told another story about this event...but of course, there is nothing to back it up except family tales and such...like the time my Grandmother told me that our ancestors owned the deed to Rhode Island - yet the document was destroyed when used to make an apple pie. This is the stuff you always take with a grain of salt... (Damn, I'd be living on Mansion Row, on the cliffs, right now).

Cheeky -

Don Bousquet, the Rhode Island cartoonist, could have a field day with that tale. Though he might change it to they were baking a Quahog pie.

Jas. Hook

[William Brand]

Not to be puckish, but this is one of those questions I can't even imagine us needing proof for. Unless there was some cultural more that was so strong and overriding (and thus, probably codified in some sort of law) it would have almost certainly been the case that someone somewhere in the many, many cultures that existed at that time would have hit upon the idea that they could get more customers if they offered variety. And when it worked, others would have taken the idea elsewhere in their travels and the idea would spread virally. (This also assumes that no one had thought of it in the many centuries before in which drinking establishments existed and the deciding point to offer variety occurred in our period.)

Aye. 'Varieties' of earlier ages (in places limited by ingredients) are often described in quality, not distinct and altogether different beverages, so that establishments of limited variety would still serve different beverages, but more 'differences' in quality of the same type of beverage rather than different drinks. At the very least, it's safe to assume that this longstanding tradition of serving poor, fair or best quality versions of similar drinks would still persist. That said, even wines of remote and isolated locations often come in dozens of varieties by the simple addition of one berry or another, or one process of refinement over another. You can alter a beer even slightly with different clarifying agents (i.e., seaweed or isinglass).

I've come across a half dozen different varieties of alcohol from the Caribbean alone, all using native starch sources and ingredients. Fermented cocoas, cane sugar rums, agave tequila, flip, aguardiente, bumbo.

[Red_Dawn]

Am I bad for giggling at this? Once again, truth is cheesier than fiction!

Sadly...I was told another story about this event...but of course, there is nothing to back it up except family tales and such...like the time my Grandmother told me that our ancestors owned the deed to Rhode Island - yet the document was destroyed when used to make an apple pie. This is the stuff you always take with a grain of salt... (Damn, I'd be living on Mansion Row, on the cliffs, right now).

Rats! And it sounded so plausible.

[Tartan Jack]

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

-- Hurricane

Now this has been revived . . .

I'm more likely to think that they would rather PARODY a work song and laugh than take it seriously.

Oh, and thanks for the book link. I vaguely remembered it, but not the title. Now I can get it.

[Mission]

While trolling around searching for images, I came across an interesting period Dutch artist - David Teniers II (aka. David Teniers the Younger). He had a couple of tavern and tavern-related paintings from the mid/late 17th century that I thought might interest the crowds. They're a bit early for GAoP Proper, but worth a look.

Tavern Scene (1658)

Three Peasants Making Music (Drei musizierende Bauern) (late 17th century)

Peasants Making Music in an Inn (1646)

The Dice Shooters (Die Dobbelaars) (1630 - 50) [Not sure if this is in a tavern or not]

The Old Beer Drinker (De oude bierdrinker) (1640-60)

The Card Players (1646) [Not sure if this is in a tavern or not]

The Smoker

Men Playing Backgammon in a Tavern

Hexenszene 1700

OK, maybe that last one is a coven, not a tavern. You can see how I'd mistake it, I'm sure.

There are actually more tavern-related pictures by Teniers. Do a Google Image search for his name and you'll find images a-plenty.

[Red_Dawn]

I found some tavern brawl pics.

Peasants Brawling over Cards by Adriaen Brouwer

Streitende Bauern in einem Wirtshaus by Brouwer

Brawl by Adriaen van OstadeThis one has knives!

[Mission]

So post 'em.

[Red_Dawn]

Sorry about that; didn't realize the links weren't working for you.

The card brawl

Brouwer's other brawl

Van Ostade's knife fight

ETA: Sorry, looks like I'm experiencing some technical difficulties. I'll take care of it in a moment.

ETA2: Fixed it.

Edited December 22, 2012 by Red_Dawn

[Mission]

Good stuff! (Well, so to speak...) Thanks, Red_Dawn.

[Captain Jim]

Just as an observation: Notice how many tables/chairs made from half barrels. Also, square bung holes in the barrels.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Captain Jim

[Mission]

They must have had lots of barrels going through a Tavern which would make for cheap furniture after the contents were removed. (See, this is why I like to see the pictures posted. A series of pictures is worth a thousand links. Well that and I initially thought the links were in Red_Dawn's signature and I ignored them. )