Behaving in a Golden Age Tavern

[hurricane]

Mission, I thought it was a little vague in my mind. I may have been reading elsewhere about the coffee houses and just thought it was a tavern. I do that even in my real life.

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

But I digress, which is easy to do when you're in Oregon...

-- Hurricane

[Mission]

Mission, I thought it was a little vague in my mind. I may have been reading elsewhere about the coffee houses and just thought it was a tavern. I do that even in my real life.

I honestly don't know. When I read it, I was focusing on things that affected health for my notes on my book on surgeons. It's been quite a few books ago so my recollections of non-surgeon relevant items aren't to be relied upon.

[Fox]

Ah, Foxe, you know my pain when someone starts singing "period songs". Plus it always makes me nuts when someone is seeing a capstan chantey or other work song but aren't doing any work. Huh? I can't see a single sailor or pirate sitting in a pub, looking at his mates and saying, "hey, let's sing that song we always do when we're trying to lift a several ton anchor out of a heaving sea. That'd be fun, eh boys? We can always get a whore later." :)

I share your pain brother.

[Hawkyns]

But, of course, we want to think we can come close, just as we think we're close singing chanteys from the whaling area and calling civil war tents "period tents". I'm not slamming this interpretation, mind you, but these too are either sanitations of the true historical record or are simply accommodations to the mainstream of re-enacting events. It does amuse me that on one hand some hold fast to quoting from original sources only but then bend rules all the time to suit our own needs or the rules and restrictions society has placed on us. How many times have we heard Rolling Down to Old Maui in a "period pub" though its origins are believed to be from around 1858 and no one is really sure of its melody.

The book Hubbub has a great discussion (if I recall) on inns and drinking establishments.

http://www.amazon.com/Hubbub-Filth-Stench-England-1600-1770/dp/0300137567/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287878836&sr=8-1

Very well done and an enjoyable read, even if you aren't into re-enacting.

I am still waiting for the famed moment in Port Royal when the buccaneer tapped the keg of red wine in the center of the street and invited others to partake. And if they didn't he threw tankards of wine at them, even if they were of the upper station of society. Now there's a moment to re-enact.

Right, I'll stop in at Yale tomorrow and see if I can get a copy of that.

Agreed on the singing. There are plenty of period tavern songs that we could be singing, The Trooper Watering His Nag comes to mind, or Back and Sides Go Bare. But we have this twitch that sailors sing chanties, even when most of them date to 19th C whaling. That's a hard one to deal with. Unfortunately, most of the pirate bands out there perpetuate the myth. If it's Irish or about sailing, it must be period, so we'll put it on our CD. Strikes me we need to do some serious reeducation in this regard.

I'd love to see someone with a keg of rotgut red heaving it about and making people drink. The vomit and refuse are more of a problem with the site cleanup than anything else, though we have very little refuse that is of a period nature- broken pots, animal bones, etc. And I don't see being able to bring a pig to wander about the site. But beyond that, the biggest problem with period behaviour is the attitude of our own. How many can drop their 21st century ideas of what is 'proper' and go along with, or at least ignore, some of these ideas? How many would squeal and get upset if they got splashed with red wine? How many would complain about raucus singing in the next tent at 3 am? How many would get offended if one of the ladies did parade her charms in an effort to emulate the whores?

Like everything else, period behaviour becomes an issue of how much people can put on the perioad attitude with the clothing.

Hawkyns

[Silver]

visit a bar in the gut of a seaport town in third world country, if you want to have something to write home about.

[Red_Dawn]

Thanks again, guys! This definitely helps.

I don't have my pirate library with me at the moment here in Oregon, but if I recall, there was a tavern, inn or pub for every 70 people or so in Port Royal at its height. The women had a mouth on them that was far fouler than any truck driver you could imagine in our times. They were brash, bold and complete, well whores. Drinking was to regular excess and the town didn't hold to the same standards of London at the time. It was in its entirety a seaport in its mores and activities. Again, bare with me, recalling this from my rum soaked mind at the time. There was constant crime in the streets, brawls in the taverns, gambling and thievery. There was no standing law there. The militia (in the town's prime) were a few regulars with the rest townfolk. It would have made the Wild West look like a day in Disneyland.

Doesn't sound like a place you'd find Capt. Feathersword! ;) Seriously, though, would this be typical, or would other ports be the same but more subdued?

I am still waiting for the famed moment in Port Royal when the buccaneer tapped the keg of red wine in the center of the street and invited others to partake. And if they didn't he threw tankards of wine at them, even if they were of the upper station of society. Now there's a moment to re-enact.

I think I'd like to see that, too.

Another question comes to mind. Were the taverns closed on Sundays or was that a more modern convention?

[Jib]

Here's a couple questions about Taverns and Behavior. First, would the average visitor to a port side tavern know which ladies are for sale and which just work in the establishment (or are they the same?)? Secondly, in a rough area like Port Royal how could a person run a tavern when you had no official police force/ town guard to prevent a group of pirates from simply killing the tavern owner, stealing his merchandise and drinking for free (or at least being so intimidating that the tavern owner allows them to drink for free and take a share of his profits)?

[Silkie McDonough]

Working girls wore blue aprons when looking for business.

Good question about tavern's and in keeps. I am looking forward to the answer.

[hurricane]

Here's a couple questions about Taverns and Behavior. First, would the average visitor to a port side tavern know which ladies are for sale and which just work in the establishment (or are they the same?)? Secondly, in a rough area like Port Royal how could a person run a tavern when you had no official police force/ town guard to prevent a group of pirates from simply killing the tavern owner, stealing his merchandise and drinking for free (or at least being so intimidating that the tavern owner allows them to drink for free and take a share of his profits)?

In Port Royal, prostitutes wore their hair down. Ladies wore them up. Simple enough, eh. Wish they would do that today.

As for the other question... I honestly don't know. An event like that has never been covered in the literature as far as I know. Not sure why it didn't happen with great regularity. Perhaps the wisest strategy is to keep the drinks flowing so they aren't in a state where they could do much damage, especially if the owner had a thug or two on his own payroll, like the bouncers of today. Still, a good question, sir!

-- Hurricane

[Mission]

In Port Royal, prostitutes wore their hair down. Ladies wore them up. Simple enough, eh. Wish they would do that today.

What on earth for? I think a lot of women look better with their hair down than up and forcing them all to keep it up just to make involvement in a particular profession clear to those who know what it means is sort of silly and oppressive. Why don't we just make them all wear scarlet P's instead?

Just out of curiosity, what is your period source for that bit of info, anyway? When was it done? For how long did the practice last? (If such a thing was to be a dodge to keep the law from learning, it couldn't have lasted very long. Only justice is blind, not everyone on the peace-keeping force.)

[Red_Dawn]

This thread's sure taking some interersting turns.

... would the average visitor to a port side tavern know which ladies are for sale and which just work in the establishment (or are they the same?)?

Working girls wore blue aprons when looking for business.

You guys made me think of another question: did ordinary women ever go to the taverns for a drink (or a flirt, or whatever)?

In Port Royal, prostitutes wore their hair down. Ladies wore them up. Simple enough, eh. Wish they would do that today.

I heard something about the Nice Girls kept their heads covered, but I might've heard wrong.

[jendobyns]

This thread's sure taking some interersting turns.

... would the average visitor to a port side tavern know which ladies are for sale and which just work in the establishment (or are they the same?)?

Working girls wore blue aprons when looking for business.

You guys made me think of another question: did ordinary women ever go to the taverns for a drink (or a flirt, or whatever)?

In Port Royal, prostitutes wore their hair down. Ladies wore them up. Simple enough, eh. Wish they would do that today.

I heard something about the Nice Girls kept their heads covered, but I might've heard wrong.

Wow, lots of interesting tidbits here. I have some questions regarding sources: Where did the one about blue aprons come from? I've seen art work with blue aprons, but the women involved were working in a domestic setting. In later period English American interpretation, there is a theory that pinner aprons were worn by women of questionable morals (they are also worn by little girls, and French women, go figure!) Not sure if that applies to GAoP, though.

Long, long ago, I attended a lecture on period travel which included a portion on taverns. Respectable women were not entertained in taverns like the men were. Taverns were, essentially, men's spaces. Even when traveling and a stop was made, the women stayed in the coach and food was brought out to them. If a woman was working in the tavern, she wasn't regarded as respectable (this could be a broad definition by upper class standards). Since women owned taverns, "respectable" might mean weather someone was in trade or not. I'll be going to another one of those lectures about taverns on Monday and will try to nail down some details.

Two pieces of later period art work come to mind, "The Spirit is Willing but the Flesh is Weak" and one Hogarth print where a young woman has just come into town and is being picked up by a procuress. There is also a series of prints themed around young women heading out to work when ships have come into port. I'll try to get back to this with links for art later.

[Silkie McDonough]

the blue apron is something that I heard from a reliable source. I believe it was a vivid blue as opposed to a light blue. I am looking for references and I will ask my source also.

[Fox]

I don't know about blue aprons on loose women, but blue in general was often used for clothing menials and the poor. England had many (and still has a few) 'bluecoat' schools for orphans and the poor, for example. Given that, I'd be very surprised if such a universal item as a blue apron necessarily implied someone was a prostitute.

Unless Hurricane provids us with a source, I strongly suspect this whole hair-down=tart/hair-up=respectable thing to be a reenactorism. Take, for example, this depiction of working prostitutes from 1726:

They're 'on the job', and they've still got their hair up and their heads covered.

[Silkie McDonough]

My apologies. I was mislead. I can't find a reference to blue aprons and whores anywhere. After doing more research, looks more like white aprons were the rule for whore's not blue. Blue was for tradesmen and the poor. Some whores wore blue gowns in certain work houses.

For further information see "A dictionary of Slang and Colloquial English" by John Stephen Framer and William Ernest Henley and "A Dictionary of Sexual Language and Imagery in Shakespearean and Stuart Literature" by Gordon Williams. Both texts confirm the term white-apron to mean a prostitute and the second gives some wonderful examples of the white apron being used to draw in customers.

Hmm ...I need to change the color of my apron.

No, the current one is not blue! It is white with some embroidery and I am a tavern owner not a whore.

[hurricane]

Foxe, it may have just been me who has my hair down when I'm whoring. That's what I get for imbibing in Hazelnut Rum in the Northwest. Can't separate myself from the hookin'. :)

Hurricane

[Mad Zan]

I like my thieves to set up the thievery in advance and return whatever is stolen so they can steal it the next day. lol

setting up the thievery in advance can be fun especially if you are performing for the public, it is great fun to catch "mom's" eye or the little kiddie's eye as you lift the desired item out of the possession of your pre-planned mark - some will turn you in while others turn a blind eye... interesting little social experiment actually.

But if it's a true pyrate party/taven it is much more fun to thieve the unsuspecting, but I will say you better fess up right away and offer back whatever items you've hoisted immediately to avoid problems.

Z

Piracy upon the banks of the Mississinewa

[Red_Dawn]

Long, long ago, I attended a lecture on period travel which included a portion on taverns. Respectable women were not entertained in taverns like the men were. Taverns were, essentially, men's spaces. Even when traveling and a stop was made, the women stayed in the coach and food was brought out to them. If a woman was working in the tavern, she wasn't regarded as respectable (this could be a broad definition by upper class standards). Since women owned taverns, "respectable" might mean weather someone was in trade or not. I'll be going to another one of those lectures about taverns on Monday and will try to nail down some details.

I think I get what your saying, though do you mean respectable women in the socio-economic sense or in the moral sense? Also, I take it from this paragraph that the non-harlot workers (serving wenches, musicians, etc.) would get hit on a lot by the patrons.

They're 'on the job', and they've still got their hair up and their heads covered.

Well, dang, it almost sounds like the only way to tell the workers from the working girls was by how many tankards they carried!

Seems like people are focusing on the harlots a lot. Now how about a little more on the violence? Pub brawls, one-on-one fights, large cranky bouncers...that kind of thing. Or maybe some other tavern no-nos.

[Silkie McDonough]

I'll be going to another one of those lectures about taverns on Monday and will try to nail down some details.

Jen, anything you can get I would be interested in, as I mentioned my character is the owner of an ordinary. Thanks so much for sharing!

[MarkG]

Here's a couple questions about Taverns and Behavior. First, would the average visitor to a port side tavern know which ladies are for sale and which just work in the establishment (or are they the same?)? Secondly, in a rough area like Port Royal how could a person run a tavern when you had no official police force/ town guard to prevent a group of pirates from simply killing the tavern owner, stealing his merchandise and drinking for free (or at least being so intimidating that the tavern owner allows them to drink for free and take a share of his profits)?

In answer to the second question, the tavern owner would have one or more bouncers on the staff to keep things quiet. Also, the locals get upset when you kill the tavern owner for no good reason. That is really short-sighted behavior. You might be able to drink for free tonight but ho is going to provide drinks tomorrow? You've shut down one tavern. The others are probably going to shoot you on sight or close until you have left port. If the taverns are closed then the locals are going to run you out of town. Then where will you sell your booty and recruit new crew members?

I think that, in general, pirates had to be on good behavior when in a friendly port if they expected it to stay friendly. Riches are useless unless you have someplace to sell them. Unless you intend on spending the rest of your life at sea or surrounded by armed guards, you will have to obey the local laws.

BTW, Wikipedia says that it was one drinking establishment for every ten residents.

Mark

[hurricane]

It would depend how one defines a drinking establishment, hence the discrepancy. The official deeds of the town pre-quake only list 19 taverns in Port Royal. Then there are the punch houses and bordellos... but their number was smaller than this estimate, if only based on the fact that there were 6,500 residents living on 49 acres of land. By that math, there would have been 700 drinking establishments in that small space. Even if you take out the slaves and the children in the census it would be 300 bars. I haven't seen anything in the island documents that puts it at that. I think a lot of that is legend. It certainly wasn't 19, by any stretch, but the town just didn't have enough commercial buildings to hold 300 bars.

-- Hurricane

[Grymm]

With a bit of snippage

My apologies. I was mislead. I can't find a reference to blue aprons and whores anywhere. After doing more research, looks more like white aprons were the rule for whore's not blue. ..............................

.................white apron being used to draw in customers..........Hmm ...I need to change the color of my apron.

I think that justb wearing a white apron or blue or striped alone didn't mark out a womans ehem profession otherwise that's an awful lot of 'ladies of negotiable virtue' coz, well pick a picture, almost all the aprons are white/natural linen with the odd blue or ticking version bunged in for good luck. It may be us wanting it to be a lot more simple than it actually was.

Those working girls may have had code words or regular pitches been a little lacksidaisical in the mode of dress, a bit too much decollitage to be decent girls or mebbe even baps out shaking them from an upper story window calling cooee, who knows. But I'm pretty certain it wasn't down to apron colour.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Grymm

[Silkie McDonough]

I said I was wrong what more do yo want?

Now don't get use to it!

[John Maddox Roberts]

Certain things seem to hold true throughout the breadth of history and geography. Among these is the nature of places of entertainment, and behavior therein, in places where law is nonexisant and the population is predomonantly young and male. Under such conditions disorder prevails, to say the very least. Activities in the taverns of Port Royal and other pirate-infested harbors probably differed little from that to be seen in the saloons of Deadwood or any Gold Rush camp. Only the costumes and weaponry varied.

[hurricane]

I think that's very true, Master Roberts. There is only slight differences in the mores of the times, but human nature hasn't changed much. We still have hookers and drunks. We still have bar fights. We still have those who will never behave. And that is the glory of our world, frankly. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Today, the hookers in Orlando carry paper cups from fast food restaurants. At least that's what Diosa told me when I moved here. Hookers in Vancouver BC look like Pretty Woman hookers. Easy enough to tell the difference, though I wish everyone would wear thigh high boots, but I digress.

-- Hurricane