Measured charges and the Elizabethan sailor

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Just wondering if the measured charge baldric was in use during Francis drake's time? If not what was used?

[Red Sea Trade]

I've seen original illustrations of "apostles" belts (I know the name is anachronistic, but it gets the point across) from as early as 1530. My understanding is that Elizabethan powder chargers were of a slightly different shape than later styles, but not radically so.

I believe many--if not most--of the troops at Drake's Raid will be wearing bandoliers.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Would Drake's men have used a musket rest? Anyone? Anyone?

[callenish gunner]

They were used in that period ...whether any of Drakes men were using them is questionable since they were most often used by land based troops

[Fox]

But in Drake's day the distinction between "land" weapons and "sea" weapons was minimal - if it existed at all. Also, "soldiers" were routinely taken on voyages, though often they were as much sailors as soldiers - they only became soldiers agian when their feet hit dry land.

Paul Meekins (Google him) is your man for bandoliers - it's an unhealthy passion of his.

[Fox]

A quick look at the Lant Roll of Sir Phillip Sydney's funeral procession (can't find a decent online image, but it's reproduced in loads of books) shows musketeers with bandoliers and rests, but calivermen with only powder flasks. The same distinction can be seen in de Gheyn's illustrations of drill from 1607

[MarkG]

Would Drake's men have used a musket rest? Anyone? Anyone?

Yes they had a bandoleer of measured charges. Those go back at least to the early 16th century.

They probably did not use musket rests - they were still using the arquebus which was light enough that it did not need a rest.

Mark

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Would Drake's men have used a musket rest? Anyone? Anyone?

Yes they had a bandoleer of measured charges. Those go back at least to the early 16th century.

They probably did not use musket rests - they were still using the arquebus which was light enough that it did not need a rest.

Mark

Thanks Mark. I am however finding period references with musket rests and matchlocks. lately I have been wondering what the tassel thing I have seen hanging from some musket rests is.

HEre is a pic of the tassel thing on the musket

Edited June 1, 2010 by Ivan Henry aka Moose

[Fox]

Yar, there are plenty of pictures of Elizabethan soldiers with musket rests. The tassle thing is a wrist loop which makes it easier to load.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Yar, there are plenty of pictures of Elizabethan soldiers with musket rests. The tassle thing is a wrist loop which makes it easier to load.

THANKS!!!

[MarkG]

Would Drake's men have used a musket rest? Anyone? Anyone?

Yes they had a bandoleer of measured charges. Those go back at least to the early 16th century.

They probably did not use musket rests - they were still using the arquebus which was light enough that it did not need a rest.

Mark

Thanks Mark. I am however finding period references with musket rests and matchlocks. lately I have been wondering what the tassel thing I have seen hanging from some musket rests is.

HEre is a pic of the tassel thing on the musket

http://cache2.asset-...F2CA583692F22C8

I'm going from the official position at Jamestown which is that muskets were brand new and were mainly used by land armies. De Gheyn shows both with and without rests.

The link to the tassel didn't come through but there is a wrist strap just below the fork that often had a fancy tassel on it. Also, in some plates, the musketeer is holding extra match cord in the same hand as the rest.

Mark

[Fox]

A note of expenditure by Sir John Norris for the 1589 expedition to Spain with Drake, dated 30 January 1589, lists:

"...disbursed for furniture of all sorts, viz. muskets, calivers, halbards, morions, corslets, pikes...

For 600 muskets of a second sort (ie. inferior), provided in this town at 30s apiece furnished...

For muskets, calivers, swords, partisans, and other munitions bought of Randall Symes...

For muskets and calivers of the best sort..."

In February Drake's expenditure included money spent on fire-arrows.

Muskets supplied for the Anglo-Dutch expedition against Spain in 1596 cost 20s, calivers cost only 15s.

Nathaniel Butler, writing a little later (1620s), is more explicit: "And in this gun room also are to be ordered and kept fixed all the small shot belonging unto the musketeers of the ship's company, together with their bandoleers and proportions of powder and shot..."

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

A note of expenditure by Sir John Norris for the 1589 expedition to Spain with Drake, dated 30 January 1589, lists:

"...disbursed for furniture of all sorts, viz. muskets, calivers, halbards, morions, corslets, pikes...

For 600 muskets of a second sort (ie. inferior), provided in this town at 30s apiece furnished...

For muskets, calivers, swords, partisans, and other munitions bought of Randall Symes...

For muskets and calivers of the best sort..."

In February Drake's expenditure included money spent on fire-arrows.

Muskets supplied for the Anglo-Dutch expedition against Spain in 1596 cost 20s, calivers cost only 15s.

Nathaniel Butler, writing a little later (1620s), is more explicit: "And in this gun room also are to be ordered and kept fixed all the small shot belonging unto the musketeers of the ship's company, together with their bandoleers and proportions of powder and shot..."

Interesting though I know not what a morian is, or for that matter a corslet, that is interesting. Though Jamestown might be a good resource, I would challenge their perspective of muskets being "new"

Edited June 4, 2010 by Ivan Henry aka Moose

[Fox]

A morion is an open faced helmet of one of a variety of designs (think classic Elizabethan helmet). A corselet is a back and breast plate.

[MarkG]

A note of expenditure by Sir John Norris for the 1589 expedition to Spain with Drake, dated 30 January 1589, lists:

"...disbursed for furniture of all sorts, viz. muskets, calivers, halbards, morions, corslets, pikes...

For 600 muskets of a second sort (ie. inferior), provided in this town at 30s apiece furnished...

For muskets, calivers, swords, partisans, and other munitions bought of Randall Symes...

For muskets and calivers of the best sort..."

In February Drake's expenditure included money spent on fire-arrows.

Muskets supplied for the Anglo-Dutch expedition against Spain in 1596 cost 20s, calivers cost only 15s.

Nathaniel Butler, writing a little later (1620s), is more explicit: "And in this gun room also are to be ordered and kept fixed all the small shot belonging unto the musketeers of the ship's company, together with their bandoleers and proportions of powder and shot..."

Interesting though I know not what a morian is, or for that matter a corslet, that is interesting. Though Jamestown might be a good resource, I would challenge their perspective of muskets being "new"

Jamestown has professional researchers. I try not to challenge professional researchers unless I have research in hand.

The musket that Jamestown was referring to is the Dutch design from 1590 which still counts as new for 1607. Earlier designs were used by the Spanish starting in the early 16th century and some of those were heavy enough to require a rest. The English did not start using this design until encountering them in the Dutch Wars so even this style of musket would have been fairly new to Drake's men. (I got this from Osprey's Matchlock Musketeer, 1588=1688). Osprey's book, The Armada Campaign, says that the majority of shot consisted of calivers rather than muskets although it is looking at all of the troops mustered including trained bands instead of just the ones on ships. I don't seem to have any Osprey books on Drake himself.

A morion is the type of helmet you associate with Spanish conquistadors. It has a high comb and wide brim. This could refer to the English version which is also known as a cabasset which substituted a high crown for the comb and has a smaller brim. A corslet is armor for the check - a back and breast.

Mark