English Writing in GOoP - When f Replaces s

[Jas. Hook]

Anyone on the reason or usage of the f replacing s in a sentence?

Jas. Hook

[Dutchman]

its still an "S", but was shaped like an "f". there is a little indent coming out of the side of either the "F" or "S" of the period font that marks which it is- i think its the "F" but don't hold me to it. There is actrually a full set of rules that govern the "S" that looks like an "F" and how it is to be used.

[michaelsbagley]

Mission has a great deal of insight into this, and has posted about it at some point... He could probably explain it a ton better, but I think it has something to do with the italicized "f" being a long "s"... Although because nothing (writing wise, or much else for that matter) in the period is standardized, there are not likely any hard and fast rules about it.

[Fox]

Like Michael said, there are no hard and fast rules, but generally the long S is used except when the S follows a tall letter such as f, h, d, l, b, or indeed a long S. Thus "mess" becomes "mefs", and "standards" becomes "ftandards".

And yes, the long S and F are two distinct characters.

[Capt. Sterling]

http://www.orbitals.com/self/ligature/ligature.htm

or here http://www.orbitals.com/self/ligature/ligature.pdf

if the first doesn't display

some insight...

and this might get ye started http://www.stonehouseday.org/Long-s.pdf

sorry would help if I included the link

Edited May 10, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[MarkG]

Like Michael said, there are no hard and fast rules, but generally the long S is used except when the S follows a tall letter such as f, h, d, l, b, or indeed a long S. Thus "mess" becomes "mefs", and "standards" becomes "ftandards".

And yes, the long S and F are two distinct characters.

To make it more complicated, there are a couple of forms of the long "S". There is one that looks like a stretched "S" and one that looks like an "f" except the bar is only on one side. Even worse, printers often mixed fonts. The First Folio (Shakespeare) is a mixture of four different fonts. Apparently they were all mixed together and the printer just used the first one he pulled out unless it actually needed an italic font. When a piece of type wore out the printer would touch it up as much as possible then have it recast.

I will not get into spelling except to mention that phonetic spelling continued well into the 18th century. This is a boon for linguists because it gives us clues on local accents.

Mark

[Cap'n Black Jack]

This site is pretty good http://dohistory.org...it/writing.html, it explains a lot about how to read the writing of the day. I am trying to reeducate myself to write in 17-18th century form. It is like learning a new language.

Capt. Black

[jendobyns]

There is a company called Walden Fonts, where you can get period fonts for your computer. Their explanation for the long s and ligature is provided in the "downloads" section under "minuteman printshop manual". I was going to cut and paste the quote, giving them credit, but it's not possible. So you have to go to their website to see it here: http://www.waldenfont.com/

It's worth checking out, as they give a fairly decent overview of the subject. They even provide sample downloads. And the clip art in the Minuteman Printshop package is worth a look.

This subject was turned into a dead horse and beaten to a bloody pulp in another forum when this computerized font was first made available, the general consensus was that it was a reliable set of "rules", based on other research that was available at the time. Hope this helps.

Jen

[jendobyns]

This site is pretty good http://dohistory.org...it/writing.html, it explains a lot about how to read the writing of the day. I am trying to reeducate myself to write in 17-18th century form. It is like learning a new language.

Capt. Black

That's a pretty interesting web site. They have some useful tips. I'd like to add that if you want to use an OED as a reference source, go for the earliest version you can find. The OED is changed every so many years and they drop unused words in favor of making room for new ones (just think of all the new words we have that weren't around 20 years ago!) Samuel Johnson's Dictionary is also useful. His was published before the OED, but iirc, he also notes his opinions of meaning at times, instead of what might be common usage. I haven't looked at Project Gutenberg to see if he's listed there, but it might be worth checking. New reprints of his work get mixed reviews, and are only selections. But they are a start. *s*

Also, an earlier source for understanding and learning penmanship is George Bickham's "Pennmanship Made Easy (Young Clerk's Assistant)", originally published in 1733. It's available as a reprint from Dover.

OK, I'll shut up now. My English Major button got pushed ;-)

[Cap'n Black Jack]

Also, an earlier source for understanding and learning penmanship is George Bickham's "Pennmanship Made Easy (Young Clerk's Assistant)", originally published in 1733. It's available as a reprint from Dover.

OK, I'll shut up now. My English Major button got pushed ;-)

You can download a copy of the Young Clerk's Assistant from Google Books.

Capt Black

[Jas. Hook]

A lot of good information here. Thanks for all your replies.

Jas. Hook

Edited May 12, 2010 by Jas. Hook

[jendobyns]

You can download a copy of the Young Clerk's Assistant from Google Books.

Capt Black

Oh, cool, they also have Dr. Johnson's dictionary! Thank you for that source!

Jen

[Slopmaker Cripps]

This site is pretty good http://dohistory.org...it/writing.html, it explains a lot about how to read the writing of the day. I am trying to reeducate myself to write in 17-18th century form. It is like learning a new language.

Capt. Black

If you want a real challenge, try learning 16th-18th century Spanish paleography.....not only is the language slightly different from today, appearing at times like a weird mutant between Portuguese and Spanish (and I've actually found solidly Portuguese words thrown into a document I was translating once), but they also used a ridiculous amount of symbols and short hand. And to make it worse, they also pushed words together, so what appears like one word is actually 2-3. Add to this the normal complications of reading period handwriting and it is a beast.

Very admirable that you are attempting to re-train your hand, as I have been doing much the same and can sympathize....it isn't as easy as one would think. and takes a LOT of ink and practice....

From La Florida,

Adam C.

[MarkG]

While we're on the subject, there are some other letter differences. "I" and "V" were often used instead of "J" and "U". For example, James was often spelled Iames (but pronounced the same). I have an original bible box from around 1640-1660 with the letters "I" and "P" on it. It was probably given as a wedding gift with the couple's initials. The groom's name could well have started with a "J" instead of "I".

Then there is the thorn (Þ) which had a "th" sound. The type used in England came from Germany and Italy and they did not use the thorn so printers used the closest letter - the "Y". This letter dropped completely out of use by the mid-15th century but it remained in abbreviations. meant "the", meant "that", etc. "Ye boat" would be pronounced "the boat".

Mark

[Capn Bob]

Well, I regret I'm jumping into this late, since it seems most of what can be said has been, but I found this on subject, which looks to be pretty comprehensive:

http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2006/06/rules-for-long-s.html

Personally, I've never had any trouble mistaking the long s for any other f'n letter (cough), but then, I'm a throwback anyway...(altho my parents may disagree, since they obviously didn't...)

[Mission]

Actually, Mission has little insight to this and just suffers along just like everyone else. Cap'n Bob's link above does lead to a nice (if entirely too large to remember unless you're going to be reading this stuff non-stop) list of rules for how they used it back when. However, I mostly think the strange letter and word usage in period texts are funny as you can see by my points for writing in fyne period style.

The truth is (as the rules Cap'n Bob referenced) that it varies from text to text and period to period. The way the letters look varies from text to text and period to period. You haven't even begun to have fun with period fonts until you've tried to decipher the apothecary symbols. You can get an idea of how much these vary from this fine reference.

[John Maddox Roberts]

And just consider, before personal computers most people would have had no idea what "font" means in this context.

[Capn Bob]

Well, with the collective body of knowledge on this board, we're all fonts of information...

And just consider, before personal computers most people would have had no idea what "font" means in this context.

[Mission]

The word 'font' referring to a typeface actually dates back to the late 17th century. As far as function, intentionally different styles of typeface date at least back to the 16th century.