Female Pirates

[angelgal918]

I figured it was bloody unlikely to connect the two, but anyways.

[John Maddox Roberts]

Kenneth Asbury's "The Gangs of New York" mentions Maggie the Goat, who bossed a gang of 19th-century river pirates that plundered anchored ships and barges in New York harbor and along the rivers, sometimes attacking isolated farms along the shore. Far from the GAOP and altogether a pretty sad-sack lot of pirates, but pirates nonetheless.

[Jas. Hook]

Kenneth Asbury's "The Gangs of New York" mentions Maggie the Goat, who bossed a gang of 19th-century river pirates that plundered anchored ships and barges in New York harbor and along the rivers, sometimes attacking isolated farms along the shore. Far from the GAOP and altogether a pretty sad-sack lot of pirates, but pirates nonetheless.

Sounds a lot like London's 'Mudlarks' who preyed on boat traffic on the Thames. There is a chapter on it in John Drake's Skull and Bones, wherein he pulled some fictional character from the gang into the plot.

Book footnotes claim they were a factual organization.

Jas. Hook

Edited May 25, 2011 by Jas. Hook

[angelgal918]

Found a totally different character...a mite bit more land-based, but pirate affiliated nonetheless.

[Red_Dawn]

One of the characters in my stories is a female pirate. Went to sea disguised as a man, got found out, still dresses as a man. Classic cheesy background.

What would being disguised as a man with anything resembling success entail back then? How could they hide some of the more noticeable female activities (once-a-month issues, why "Bob" doesn't use the head the same way the other guys do, etc.)? If it helps, she's tall for a woman, somewhat small-chested, and has an alto voice (think Toni Braxton).

Also, what did society think of a known woman who dressed as a man? Crazy weirdo? Loose woman? Lesbian? What would they think of any alleged boyfriend of hers? Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

[Swashbuckler 1700]

One of the characters in my stories is a female pirate. Went to sea disguised as a man, got found out, still dresses as a man. Classic cheesy background.

What would being disguised as a man with anything resembling success entail back then? How could they hide some of the more noticeable female activities (once-a-month issues, why "Bob" doesn't use the head the same way the other guys do, etc.)? If it helps, she's tall for a woman, somewhat small-chested, and has an alto voice (think Toni Braxton).

Also, what did society think of a known woman who dressed as a man? Crazy weirdo? Loose woman? Lesbian? What would they think of any alleged boyfriend of hers? Anything else I should know?

Thanks!

Well obviously in those days women dressed as man would be real scandal like in case of Anne bonny and Mary read.

Women disguised as a man would even be hard to believe to people back then.

In his book (general history of pirates) C.Johnson writes: "NOW we are to begin a History full of surprizing Turns and Adventures; I mean, that of Mary Read and Anne Bonny, alias Bonn, which were the true Names of these two Pyrates; the odd Incidents of their rambling Lives are such, that some may be tempted to think the whole Story no better than a Novel or Romance; but since it is supported by many thousand Witnesses, I mean the People of Jamaica, who were present at their Tryals, and heard the Story of their Lives, upon the first discovery of their Sex; the Truth of it can be no more contested, than that there were such Men in the World, as Roberts and Black-beard, who were Pyrates".

And with this kind of clothing hiding sex would not be impossible http://www.clipart.d...e_pirate001.jpg

There is typical sailors clothing (None sash is not very accurate).

In Toilet.... well in ships you can go gunwale and do what you must do in the cover of the night...

Edited February 11, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Mission]

I've never heard anything about the social problems women might encounter in such an environment. If the topic really interests you, you might want to check out David Cordingly's book on Seafaring Women. (I expect the problems on nearly any ship during this period would be similar.) Cordingly's pretty objective from my experience and would probably give as fair an assessment as you're going to find. (Plus you can get it for cheap on Amazon used.)

[Fox]

One question can be answered: Catherine Lincken, who went to sea disguised as a man in the GAoP period used a cow's horn covered with leather to go to the head.

I don't know how much scandal was really caused by Bonny and Read. They were notable at the time, certainly, but they weren't disguised in the sense that they didn't hide the fact they were women, they simply wore men's clothes from time to time for practical reasons - as other women also did without creating uproar. It was notable because it was unusual, but not scandalous. Even women who did actually disguise themselves as men were usually either treated as a bit of a 15 minute celebrity or just ignored. In the early 19th century there was a black woman calling herself "William Brown", who served for many years in the Royal Navy as an able seamen. Eventually she was found out to be a woman, but the following year reenlisted on the same ship!

[theM.A.dDogge]

Most of todays "extremely" active sports atheletes say that their body actually stops menstrurating ...or will go several monthes anyway....while in heavey training....and ships life would be just as ...ah....athletic...

thats an easy one to get away with for your character.

[silas thatcher]

a while ago, i read a book about women in pyracy and navies... one account illustrated a woman that served in her majesty's royal navy of all things, as a man... after her service, she married, i want to say owned a tavern ( i may be confusing this particular fact with another story ) , yet when her husband died and she was left with nothing, she sued the royal navy for her pension... she showed up in court dressed as she did aboard ship... the officers of the ship testified to his/her ability as as able seaman and his/her service... she was then granted the same pension given to males in the service of her majesty's royal navy...

i wish i could recall more facts but you get the general idea...

[Swashbuckler 1700]

One question can be answered: Catherine Lincken, who went to sea disguised as a man in the GAoP period used a cow's horn covered with leather to go to the head.

I don't know how much scandal was really caused by Bonny and Read. They were notable at the time, certainly, but they weren't disguised in the sense that they didn't hide the fact they were women, they simply wore men's clothes from time to time for practical reasons - as other women also did without creating uproar. It was notable because it was unusual, but not scandalous. Even women who did actually disguise themselves as men were usually either treated as a bit of a 15 minute celebrity or just ignored. In the early 19th century there was a black woman calling herself "William Brown", who served for many years in the Royal Navy as an able seamen. Eventually she was found out to be a woman, but the following year reenlisted on the same ship!

Well Mary Read was hiding her sex in Dutch ship before she turned pirate, when Rackman took the ship....

As a pirate either one hide their sex....actually accordig tho some Frechmen's statement Both Read and Bonny used sometimes womens clothes..

If I am not rigth sai so

But there were problems with disguised women in ships

In the most best know articles by B.Roberts there is this "No boy or woman to be allowed amongst them. If any man were to be found seducing any of the latter sex, and carried her to sea, disguised, he was to suffer death"

Please if this topic continues I hope that no one brings "Charlotte de Berry" in this discussion...Since she was almost certainly not real person at all...

Edited February 11, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Elena]

a while ago, i read a book about women in pyracy and navies... one account illustrated a woman that served in her majesty's royal navy of all things, as a man... after her service, she married, i want to say owned a tavern ( i may be confusing this particular fact with another story ) , yet when her husband died and she was left with nothing, she sued the royal navy for her pension... she showed up in court dressed as she did aboard ship... the officers of the ship testified to his/her ability as as able seaman and his/her service... she was then granted the same pension given to males in the service of her majesty's royal navy...

i wish i could recall more facts but you get the general idea...

This is http://en.wikipedia....ah_Snell Hannah Snell. The sailors' clothes were loose, easy to disguise a well binded chest... As long as she took care to not be seen by anybody naked... Including going to the head when nobody was around... It worked. There were others who were identified only when wounded or dead too.

The monthly problems seemed to be less monthly in an environment of heavy work, as far as I heard, and a little blood didn't make the others think "he's a she" first, but "he's got an illness from a whore", because many sailors had.

I have such a character too, Marina becomes Martin... and in one story is found out when wounded in a fight (but in that case she wasn't hiding for long, only a coupe of months) and in my RPG she is found out because she got pregnant (no, she had no idea about it) and she faints, being carried to sickbay...

Charlotte de Berry is disputed if she existed or not, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Dieu-le-Veut Anne Dieu le Veut was... and apparently Mademoiselle de Maupin too...

Edited February 11, 2012 by Elena

[Fox]

Mary Read joined Rackham's crew, with Bonny, at its formation.

And Charlotte de Berry is most certainly fictional, and some very new research is casting serious doubt on Hannah Snell's story. Sorry.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Mary Read joined Rackham's crew, with Bonny, at its formation.

And Charlotte de Berry is most certainly fictional, and some very new research is casting serious doubt on Hannah Snell's story. Sorry.

What do you mean in every source says that mary was soldier (as man) in cavarly in Flanders and then she married soldier/ sailor and when he died mary joined Dutch merchant ship way to Jamaica as man. Later ship was taken by Rackman's pirates and so Mary's pirate career begun.

You can chek that in here were is Johnson's book Ghop online:

http://digital.lib.ecu.edu/historyfiction/viewer.aspx?id=joh

Edited February 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

There are indeed many many books that tell that story about Mary Read, but every single one of them is copying it from Johnson's General History. The big problem is that Johnson got it wrong.

In fairness, there is no evidence either way as to whether she really was a cavalryman in Flanders - she may have been, but there's no other record of it. However, there is other evidence relating to the time of her piracy, and from that we can definitely say that she was not disguised as a man at any point. Within about three or four days of Rackham and his crew going on the account Woodes Rogers issued a proclamation declaring them pirates, and naming Bonny and Read as members of the crew. If Woodes Rogers knew she was a woman then she wasn't disguised, and all those slightly comic misunderstanding that were supposed to have taken place betwene Bonny and Read didn't happen.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

There are indeed many many books that tell that story about Mary Read, but every single one of them is copying it from Johnson's General History. The big problem is that Johnson got it wrong.

In fairness, there is no evidence either way as to whether she really was a cavalryman in Flanders - she may have been, but there's no other record of it. However, there is other evidence relating to the time of her piracy, and from that we can definitely say that she was not disguised as a man at any point. Within about three or four days of Rackham and his crew going on the account Woodes Rogers issued a proclamation declaring them pirates, and naming Bonny and Read as members of the crew. If Woodes Rogers knew she was a woman then she wasn't disguised, and all those slightly comic misunderstanding that were supposed to have taken place betwene Bonny and Read didn't happen.

This is almost at big shock than those jolly Roger facts....

While I trust your theory... I still belive that it was not so simple like you said and it is well posibble that Johnson was rigth at least in some point....

My confidence to many books and Cordingly deteriorated even further now

Edited February 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

There are indeed many many books that tell that story about Mary Read, but every single one of them is copying it from Johnson's General History. The big problem is that Johnson got it wrong.

In fairness, there is no evidence either way as to whether she really was a cavalryman in Flanders - she may have been, but there's no other record of it. However, there is other evidence relating to the time of her piracy, and from that we can definitely say that she was not disguised as a man at any point. Within about three or four days of Rackham and his crew going on the account Woodes Rogers issued a proclamation declaring them pirates, and naming Bonny and Read as members of the crew. If Woodes Rogers knew she was a woman then she wasn't disguised, and all those slightly comic misunderstanding that were supposed to have taken place betwene Bonny and Read didn't happen.

Do you mean with all your coments that there were not women sailor or pirates at all disguised as men and those few real women were openly women?....

Still if there would not be disguised women there would not be for certain prohibitions to bring disguised women aboard ship in pirate articles. Like nowdays there would not be prohibitions to smoking in restaurants if people would not have smoked there....

people have probably said that you are really a killjoy

Edited February 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

There are indeed many many books that tell that story about Mary Read, but every single one of them is copying it from Johnson's General History. The big problem is that Johnson got it wrong.

In fairness, there is no evidence either way as to whether she really was a cavalryman in Flanders - she may have been, but there's no other record of it. However, there is other evidence relating to the time of her piracy, and from that we can definitely say that she was not disguised as a man at any point. Within about three or four days of Rackham and his crew going on the account Woodes Rogers issued a proclamation declaring them pirates, and naming Bonny and Read as members of the crew. If Woodes Rogers knew she was a woman then she wasn't disguised, and all those slightly comic misunderstanding that were supposed to have taken place betwene Bonny and Read didn't happen.

What about her sailor career in Dutch ship is there any reason to believe that it would be inaccurate...

[Fox]

What about her sailor career in Dutch ship is there any reason to believe that it would be inaccurate...

No, no reason to suppose it's inaccurate. But no reason to suppose it's accurate either, the only source for it again is Johnson, and we know that he made so much of the Bonny and Read story up.

There are four women known to have sailed in pirate crews during the GAoP, Anne Bonny, Mary Read, Martha Farley, and Maria Critchett. All of whom are also known to have done so quite openly as women. It is possible that one or more women disguised themselves as men in order to go aboard and were never discovered, but it's statistically and practically unlikely.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

What about her sailor career in Dutch ship is there any reason to believe that it would be inaccurate...

No, no reason to suppose it's inaccurate. But no reason to suppose it's accurate either, the only source for it again is Johnson, and we know that he made so much of the Bonny and Read story up.

There are four women known to have sailed in pirate crews during the GAoP, Anne Bonny, Mary Read, Martha Farley, and Maria Critchett. All of whom are also known to have done so quite openly as women. It is possible that one or more women disguised themselves as men in order to go aboard and were never discovered, but it's statistically and practically unlikely.

On the whole I agree but if tere were not disguised woman why there was need to forbit them in articles... after all B. Roberts had about 12 rules why there would not be space of unnecessary rules...

[Swashbuckler 1700]

What about her sailor career in Dutch ship is there any reason to believe that it would be inaccurate...

No, no reason to suppose it's inaccurate. But no reason to suppose it's accurate either, the only source for it again is Johnson, and we know that he made so much of the Bonny and Read story up.

There are four women known to have sailed in pirate crews during the GAoP, Anne Bonny, Mary Read, Martha Farley, and Maria Critchett. All of whom are also known to have done so quite openly as women. It is possible that one or more women disguised themselves as men in order to go aboard and were never discovered, but it's statistically and practically unlikely.

On the whole I agree but if tere were not disguised woman why there was need to forbit them in articles... after all B. Roberts had about 12 rules there would not be space of unnecessary rules...

[Fox]

Yes, that article is an interesting indicator. (FWIW, the article is also only recorded by Johnson, but it happens to be one of the bits of Johnson I believe).

The best we can say is that several hundred pirates were captured and tried, and we know that none of them were women (it's the kind of thing that would have come out in court), and that there are no other records of disguised women pirates being uncovered. So if there were women disguised as men then they were very good at hiding their gender and lucky enough never to get caught.

There were, of course, other women who spent time aboard pirate ships, but not as part of the crew.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Yes, that article is an interesting indicator. (FWIW, the article is also only recorded by Johnson, but it happens to be one of the bits of Johnson I believe).

The best we can say is that several hundred pirates were captured and tried, and we know that none of them were women (it's the kind of thing that would have come out in court), and that there are no other records of disguised women pirates being uncovered. So if there were women disguised as men then they were very good at hiding their gender and lucky enough never to get caught.

There were, of course, other women who spent time aboard pirate ships, but not as part of the crew.

I agree with you

and I believe that:

"there maybe some one or two women as men but certainly there were very very few...."

[Mission]

Yes, that article is an interesting indicator. (FWIW, the article is also only recorded by Johnson, but it happens to be one of the bits of Johnson I believe).

You should write an annotated version of Johnson's work, refuting all the things you know are wrong with sources. I'd love to have something like that. It would sure create a hell of a stir in the pirate-loving community. :) (This is what the editors of Alexander Hamilton's book have done. It's most enlightening to read their comments about what he got wrong and why they think he got it wrong.)

[Fox]

You should write an annotated version of Johnson's work, refuting all the things you know are wrong with sources.

Working on it... not only all the things we know are wrong, but also all the things we know are right, and most importantly, where "Johnson" got his information.

Current estimated completion date: 2020.