Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 My pleasure... always nice to find something "new"... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Jack Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Sorry for the "fop" comment. I was thinking from a Scot highlander/lower class usage of the term for overdressed folks, even if not technically correct. (Period class-snobbery/warfare) It was used as a pejorative term, much like "monkey-suit" is today for suits (originally, that was a reference to tuxes, from trained monkey outfits seen in shows and vaudeville acts. They dressed up monkeys in tuxes as part of the acts). Men dressed for show, rather than work, were commonly termed "fop" in Highlander writings -where I've primarily seen the term in period contexts. That's what I was thinking above, not literally accurate for the "real" technical meaning of the term "fop." I apologize. Meaning of "fop:" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fop In reality, the outfit of a gentleman, not a fop. I could EASILY see someone make a copy or something based on that for am event! See the list of folks see dockside in my post above- several could have dressed that way. -John "Tartan Jack" Wages, of South Carolina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Jack Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 My pleasure... always nice to find something "new"... Thanks for posting that. We need to talk period fashions whenever we meet in person. Most of my research has been period sailors and Highlanders from the '15 and '45 Jacobite Rebellions. So, my background isn't in researching the upperclasses or better-off folks. -John "Tartan Jack" Wages, of South Carolina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 The illustrations in that Osprey series (written by Konstam) is an odd mesh of images. That's one book from Osprey I'd NOT use as the basis for a historically accurate kit. MacBride is an illustrator, and a very good one, that used the guidance of the author-historian(s) to make his drawings. I'd not fault him for inaccuracies. As for what period-accurate garb is most appropriate . . . What exactly are you trying to portray? There were several accurate, but quite different, looks one would see around the docks in the period- some were sailors, business-men (bartering w/ the pirates), backers for privateers, beggars, craftsmen (oft w/ trade-specific items), typical sailors, officers, captains who weren't really qualified and were gentlemen-on-adventure, police, marines (and mercenary-marines hiring themselves out to ships and cargo vessels w/ valuable cargo), loved ones, various "support" industries, and so forth. Thanks for the answers guys, I am thinking of making a Spanish officers militairy frock coat 1700. Sinds it's an officers coat I can get away with maybe some (silk) interlining and some other fancy aditions..? I am still thinking about what to use for the outside fabric, right now I have lokated some (very) fine woven 100% wool cloth wich is a bit velvetted (vilted?)on the outside... Then I have seen stiffer linnens and some robuster cottons of the right collor especialy the cotton has a nice faded look allready that I like. Would (military) frock coats have extra material sandwiched into the inner en outer fabric's on locations where buttons and their holes are? I think I need to start make a drawing of what I am thinking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) Sorry for the "fop" comment. I was thinking from a Scot highlander/lower class usage of the term for overdressed folks, even if not technically correct. (Period class-snobbery/warfare) It was used as a pejorative term, much like "monkey-suit" is today for suits (originally, that was a reference to tuxes, from trained monkey outfits seen in shows and vaudeville acts. They dressed up monkeys in tuxes as part of the acts). Men dressed for show, rather than work, were commonly termed "fop" in Highlander writings -where I've primarily seen the term in period contexts. That's what I was thinking above, not literally accurate for the "real" technical meaning of the term "fop." I apologize. Meaning of "fop:" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fop In reality, the outfit of a gentleman, not a fop. I could EASILY see someone make a copy or something based on that for am event! See the list of folks see dockside in my post above- several could have dressed that way. Monkey suit indeed! them be fightin words...ahem.. remind me.. ahem... to run ye through next time I see ye... and yes, I already have the claret colored wool set aside by Paul Dickfoss... ahem... wool much nicer than the silk velvet and will bring it down a notch in status...and last a whole lot longer... now to decide on which waistcoat to copy the one at Williamsburg or the one at Jamestown... like the vermicelli so much more than all that gold work Edited April 23, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 Thanks for posting that. We need to talk period fashions whenever we meet in person. ahem... cough, cough, we shall sound like a couple of fops... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 Now if only I could get my hair to curl like that wig.. I wouldn't have to buy a wig considering I already have blond hair...sheesh...starting to sound like Seymour that dung farmer's son "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) Thanks for the answers guys, I am thinking of making a Spanish officers militairy frock coat 1700. Since it's an officers coat I can get away with maybe some (silk) interlining and some other fancy aditions..? Hmmm from a civilian point of view, silk lining is appropriate to the time frame for upper classes, but from a military point of view...and knowing little about Spanish kit, you might want to dig a bit further and not just assume...Have you seen the thread here in Twill, Uniform Colours? Mickey Bagley has done quite a bit of research on things and may have come across some more information regarding Spanish kit. I am still thinking about what to use for the outside fabric, right now I have looked at some (very) fine woven 100% wool cloth which is a bit velvetted (vilted?)on the outside... Then I have seen stiffer linnens and some robuster cottons of the right collor especialy the cotton has a nice faded look allready that I like. I like the sound of the napped wool best but that is just my personal taste. I used heavy linen canvas for interlining a heavy linen coat and it has soften considerably over the past year and is losing it shape... Although I must admit it is a lot lighter in weight and a whole lot cooler... As to cotton fabric.. beware... Cotton often meant wool for our time frame... Indian Calicos was often the term used for fabric made from the cotton plant for our time frame... and most people argue as to what the cotton was actually like... but if you get swatches of currently produced Indian Calicos the weight is often extremely light and at this point without having worked with it yet in anything more than basic sewing... not sure I can see a proper coat looking correctly made from the stuff... I have a banyan made from Indian calico and even though it is supposed to be rather shapeless without the heavy linen lining.. it would just cling like a cocoon ... Would (military) frock coats have extra material sandwiched into the inner en outer fabric's on locations where buttons and their holes are? One can a hazard a quess that they might have as military can follow similar construction techniques as civilian garments (although I am speaking here of later Rev. War period items)...but that is an assumption... what documentation have you come up with? Have you tried contacting St. Augustine's? I once had a lengthy and very interesting conversation with one of their staff regarding some of the major differences in kit due to just the very basis of Protestant English versus Catholic Spanish with a heavy Moorish influence on the lower classes... whew... I think I need to start make a drawing of what I am thinking about... And could you possibly share any written documentation you might have...some of us here would not mind reading it and giving our interpretation if we can... Edited April 23, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 St. Augustine's? Can you direct me to their site or something? Unfortunatly my documentation is next to nothing right now ... ...other then two small booklets with Spanish uniforms from the rev. wars., a very limited confersation with a Spanish guy from the "Tercio de Morados Viejos"one of these purple guys... and some other spanish blogs, sites and forums on wich I have written but up to now had no respond... Then there's this site and drawing that has inspired me... My interrest comes actualy from the side of the Guatemala original inhabitants and there traditional dress, my aim is to get a mixed outfit of colonial Spanish military end local Maya dress (traje) from the more or less 1700 period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Jack Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Thanks for posting that. We need to talk period fashions whenever we meet in person. ahem... cough, cough, we shall sound like a couple of fops... Sound . . . Maybe. But won't look that way. -John "Tartan Jack" Wages, of South Carolina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Jack Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 St. Augustine's? Can you direct me to their site or something? Unfortunatly my documentation is next to nothing right now ... ...other then two small booklets with Spanish uniforms from the rev. wars., a very limited confersation with a Spanish guy from the "Tercio de Morados Viejos"one of these purple guys... and some other spanish blogs, sites and forums on wich I have written but up to now had no respond... Then there's this site and drawing that has inspired me... My interrest comes actualy from the side of the Guatemala original inhabitants and there traditional dress, my aim is to get a mixed outfit of colonial Spanish military end local Maya dress (traje) from the more or less 1700 period. for uniform colors and materials, look at THIS thread: https://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=10228 -John "Tartan Jack" Wages, of South Carolina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 St. Augustine's? Can you direct me to their site or something? http://staugustinegovernment.com/your_government/PurposeofHT.cfm http://projects.ajc.com/travel-guide/st-augustine/attractions/colonial-spanish-quarter-and-spanish-quarter-museu/ also you might wish to contact/pm Sgt. Johnson here at the pub... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) Um my Spanish isn't...at all but could are these reenactors of the regiment you are interested in... Felipe IV, por un decreto de 10 de Septiembre de 1.634 creó el "tercio de los morados". El "tercio de los Morados" fue una guardia real en cuyo uniforme destacaba el color morado, cuya bandera ostentaba los atributos del Conde-Duque de Olivares. Con ese nombre, se incorporó al ejército del nuevo rey Felipe V en el año 1700. El 28 de Febrero de 1707 adopta el nombre de " Regimiento de Infantería de Castilla " y más posteriormente se le llamó "Regimiento del Rey" con la calificación de Inmemorial. En realidad tampoco realmente era su color morado según el concepto actual del violeta oscuro, próximo al azul, sino rojo grana como el zumo de la mora (de ahí lo de morado). Can someone translate? I am not finding anything in plain English regarding the Legion of Old Purple... is there another way of translating the name or is their a more formal regimental name and/or number? ah one more question...does the regiment still exist? Edited April 23, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Yes those are the guys... Let me try to translate (from Spanish to Dutch, from Dutch to English ) At 10 sept. 1634 by a decree, Felipe IV created the third, purple regiment. This regiment at first was a Royal Guard with purple uniforms that caried a flag with the emblems of Count-Duke of Olivares. As such it joined the army of King Felip V in 1700 and caried the name "Kings Regiment". In 28/02/1707 it changed to "Castilla Infantry Regiment" with the qualification of Immemorial(?) And then the story says something (I don't realy understand) about the collor not being real (royal?/the Kings?)purple but more something like blackberry juice...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Felipe IV, por un decreto de 10 de Septiembre de 1.634 creó el "tercio de los morados". El "tercio de los Morados" fue una guardia real en cuyo uniforme destacaba el color morado, cuya bandera ostentaba los atributos del Conde-Duque de Olivares. Con ese nombre, se incorporó al ejército del nuevo rey Felipe V en el año 1700. El 28 de Febrero de 1707 adopta el nombre de " Regimiento de Infantería de Castilla " y más posteriormente se le llamó "Regimiento del Rey" con la calificación de Inmemorial. En realidad tampoco realmente era su color morado según el concepto actual del violeta oscuro, próximo al azul, sino rojo grana como el zumo de la mora (de ahí lo de morado). My translation would be: "Philip IV, by a decree of 10 September, 1634, created the "purple regiment. "The Purple regiment was a royal guard distinguished by its purple uniform, whose flag displayed the arms of the Count-Duke of Olivares. With that name, it was incorporated in the new army of the king Philip IV in the year 1700. "On 28 February, 1707, it adopted the name of "Regiment of Castilian Infantry," and still later it was named "King's Regiment" with the honor of Immemorial ["Immortal in memory" might give you an idea of the sentiment here]. "In reality, its color wasn't really purple according to the modern concept of dark violet, next to blue, but garnet red like mulberry juice." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Felipe IV, por un decreto de 10 de Septiembre de 1.634 creó el "tercio de los morados". El "tercio de los Morados" fue una guardia real en cuyo uniforme destacaba el color morado, cuya bandera ostentaba los atributos del Conde-Duque de Olivares. Con ese nombre, se incorporó al ejército del nuevo rey Felipe V en el año 1700. El 28 de Febrero de 1707 adopta el nombre de " Regimiento de Infantería de Castilla " y más posteriormente se le llamó "Regimiento del Rey" con la calificación de Inmemorial. En realidad tampoco realmente era su color morado según el concepto actual del violeta oscuro, próximo al azul, sino rojo grana como el zumo de la mora (de ahí lo de morado). My translation would be: "Philip IV, by a decree of 10 September, 1634, created the "purple regiment. "The Purple regiment was a royal guard distinguished by its purple uniform, whose flag displayed the arms of the Count-Duke of Olivares. With that name, it was incorporated in the new army of the king Philip IV in the year 1700. "On 28 February, 1707, it adopted the name of "Regiment of Castilian Infantry," and still later it was named "King's Regiment" with the honor of Immemorial ["Immortal in memory" might give you an idea of the sentiment here]. "In reality, its color wasn't really purple according to the modern concept of dark violet, next to blue, but garnet red like mulberry juice." Thanks Daniel! That translation is better then mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Um my Spanish isn't...at all but could are these reenactors of the regiment you are interested in... http://www.flickr.co...anel/479690224/ http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/ What do you think of their clothing? Does it look period? To me it's looks as if the whole bats of cloths has been made in one run, and maybe with a not so period material? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Just found this couple of tailors on the net.. (an turn of the volume of your computer, because the music on this site drives you nuts ) Down below the men's clothing page is a frock coat 1730-1750 made from cotton damask... I'm going to ask if it is real cotton (no wool) and if he has any reverence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 Um my Spanish isn't...at all but could are these reenactors of the regiment you are interested in... http://www.flickr.co...anel/479690224/ http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/ What do you think of their clothing? Does it look period? To me it's looks as if the whole bats of cloths has been made in one run, and maybe with a not so period material? Hmmm to hard to accurately tell from a photograph... but perhaps there is some way through flickr or the photographer to contact this unit... hopefully they would have the documentation that you need to support what sort of fabrics were used... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 (edited) My translation would be: "Philip IV, by a decree of 10 September, 1634, created the "purple regiment. "The Purple regiment was a royal guard distinguished by its purple uniform, whose flag displayed the arms of the Count-Duke of Olivares. With that name, it was incorporated in the new army of the king Philip IV in the year 1700. "On 28 February, 1707, it adopted the name of "Regiment of Castilian Infantry," and still later it was named "King's Regiment" with the honor of Immemorial ["Immortal in memory" might give you an idea of the sentiment here]. "In reality, its color wasn't really purple according to the modern concept of dark violet, next to blue, but garnet red like mulberry juice." thanks Daniel... maybe this will help with the hunting Edited April 26, 2010 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 Just found this couple of tailors on the net.. (an turn of the volume of your computer, because the music on this site drives you nuts ) Down below the men's clothing page is a frock coat 1730-1750 made from cotton damask... I'm going to ask if it is real cotton (no wool) and if he has any reverence... Hmmm two problems with this...different time frame... and unfortunately there are a lot of vendors who are out to make money and are not too concerned with historical accuracy...so what you see on a vendor's webpage, may be far from what was actually worn...and comparing a cotton damask coat from 1730-1750s to a regimental from 1700 could be throwing you way off from what was actually worn... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 Ok I am not used (jet) to narrowing one's impression down to 30 years. Doing iron age reenactment as my core thing, I am allready happy if I can stay within a 100 years range... Ho much years is going to make to big a difference? 40? 30? 20? Oh and have you seen the link I posted on the uniform colors thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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