Who Are We?

[Capn' Mac]

Who are we? Who am I?

From what perspective?

Personally? I’m a history buff. I have a hunger to know what life was like for certain people of certain nationalities during certain time periods. I like to know what it was really like, un-romanticized, and realistically. There are several areas of history that fascinate me. The GAoP being in the top three. For me, part of learning about history is to experience as much of it as is possible through re-enactment. When it comes to 16^th century and 18^th century piracy, this becomes exceedingly difficult living in land locked Colorado! So I have to make due as best as I can. For me the more authentic the experience the better.

That being said it’s also about fun. If it ain’t fun in my book, don’t do it!

[Quartermaster James]

We are 21st Century people who play a game of dress-up and who spend a lot of time pissing and moaning about the rules of the game and whether other people are playing fair.

[hurricane]

We are also fortunate to have so much free time on our hands to pursue things like re-enactment, rather than working ourselves to death just to survive in centuries past. We can thank all our advances in technology, farming, medicine, etc. for this hobby of ours, as we have something few generations before us had -- a lot of free time.

-- Hurricane

[Ransom]

Ah, reality, there's an easily blurred concept

I've spent the last ten years working full time on a square-rigger, much of it 'in harness'. But I still have a cell-phone and use the internet. Frankly, I'm really not that sure that I'm sure what reality really is...

There is also the fact that, if something at a Total Experience event goes sideways (someone gets sick, seriously injured, etc) you can call an ambulance, or resort to very 21st century means to save a life. Those who lived back then did not have that option. That's the kicker. You can opt out when you get tired of the uncomfortableness off it all, or it suddenly goes past harmless playacting. I seriously doubt you would all stand around and let someone die for the sake of authenticity —"Oops, sorry ol' mate, but antibiotics and cell phones aren't PC, so I guess you're going to bleed to death, or go septic and die"

We are all dressing in funny clothes, playing a grownup game of pretend. How serious can we really be?

And Hawkyns, no offense intended, but by your posts, I get the impression that your events are something to be endured, rather than enjoyed. I totally understand and "get" your dedication. Maybe for you that's a personal challenge, but for most reenactors, once the game stops being fun and becomes something to merely survive (for bragging rights?), then what's the point?

[Hawkyns]

And Hawkyns, no offense intended, but by your posts, I get the impression that your events are something to be endured, rather than enjoyed. I totally understand and "get" your dedication. Maybe for you that's a personal challenge, but for most reenactors, once the game stops being fun and becomes something to merely survive (for bragging rights?), then what's the point?

I guess it depends on a bunch of things. It's another part of why I started this thread. It all depends on what your tradition is in reenacting. I don't come out of the Ren world. I come out of more hardcore reenacting, WWII and Trekking were the first real reenactments I got involved with. WWII is insanely detail oriented by pyrate standards. Trekking is a combination of history and survival course. Yes, some of us do see hardcore reenactments as a trial to see how well we can deal with the hardships of history.

Let me tell you about one of the treks I went on a few years back. Beginning of April and a fairly warm spring. A bunch of us met at a trailhead in the foothills of the Catskills. Gear was checked to see we had nothing modern except a pocket first aid kit, suitably hidden, and neccesary meds. My pack weighed about 30 pounds, plus musket and weapons belt. We hiked in about 10 miles or so, and rose in altitude quite a bit. By the time it was heading for dark, we were above the snowline and there were still piles of snow about. We, the 6 of us, set shelter- ground cloth, blanket, and small tarp over- and scouted for dry wood for the fire. We got a fire going, cooked a meal of rice, dried peas, and jerky with tea and some period chocolate. Asleep at dark and awake at first light, with occasional waking up to keep the fire fed. Breakfast was bacon and biscuit softened in the bacon grease, with more tea. We scouted the area through the day, including needing to wade through thigh deep snow runoff streams. Evening was the same thing, accompanied by a touch of rum from the flasks. Dawn we packed camp and back down the mountain.

It was the best damn time. We survived, proved that we could, at least for a short time, deal with an 18th C environment. There are ACW groups that will park 10-15 miles from the reenactment and march in. Lots of 18th c rangers and natives that have camps that make Patrick's camp look like luxury accomodations. WWII people want to see production dates and manufacturors marks on kit that will never be seen by the public or even others in the unit. It all depends where you came from. Pyracy is a relative latecomer on the reenactment scene. Most of us have done this in other places, whether it is Faire, Hardcore, or Battle Reenactors, before we got involved in pyracy. We bring with us those attitudes. Unfortunately, they don't always mesh well. You see my style of reenactment as an ordeal. I see a pub crawl as a complete waste of time. (Not saying you are a pub crawler, just an example.) That's why I think it is so important that events are extremely clear in advance about what to expect.

Hawkyns

[Quartermaster James]

A pub crawl is just that: a pub crawl. If you like them, fine. If you don't, also fine. I've certainly done my fair share of them in any number of costumes ranging from the utterly ridiculous to the approximately historic. Does the pre-Easter Bad Hare Day pub crawl make us a group of "Rabbit Reenactors"? No. Not all, at least.

Reenacting, to my mind, is performance. To my mind, it is done for an audience. Sometimes that audience is the public, sometimes it is your fellow reenactors. More and more I am convinced that I am not now, never was, and will never be a reenactor.

Now, camping, shooting, woods-walking, and the like with like minded company who just also happen to be carrying nothing they couldn't have carried in the 18th century (excluding mindset, of course)...that's not reenacting, that's just something we do...

[Mission]

That sounds really neat. We used to do things sort of like that when I was in my 20s - minimal gear and several days as far from civilization as we could get. We didn't do period, but that just makes it all the more interesting IMO. (Although I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to do that any more. Then again, if I weren't writing the Surgeon's Journals, I wouldn't like things like the pub crawls either. They have almost always seemed like a waste of time, but the Journal adds a fun aspect to them.)

I don't come from a re-enacting background at all. I probably wouldn't still be doing this if it weren't for the people I've met, Michael's help in keeping me on the straight and narrow, the opportunities to spout off about the horrific aspects of period surgery and the chance to do the Journals. I have a love/hate relationship with the Surgeon's Journals. (I love them when I'm thinking about them and I hate them when I'm trying to pull everything together and get them done.)

[Guest]

I get the impression that your events are something to be endured, rather than enjoyed.

It's just another aspect of reenacting...

Have you learned the skills and knowledge so that you can live (semi)comfortably with only period gear and clothing...(even if it is only for a weekend)

<And one ofthe advantages of knowing how to pack "light".... it dosen't take me much time to set-up or tear down my camp at events.... >

[Mission]

It occurred to me this morning that the goals of the people involved in re-enacting are as wide and varied as they probably were for actually turning to piracy during period. It's sort of appropriate since pirates were not known for being particularly unified in their approach to things. (Then again, people are not known for being particularly unified in their approach to things, even when they appear to be so from the outside looking in.)

Still, I like the idea that someone becomes a pirate re-enactor because it is not quite as rigid and structured as other re-enactments sound like they might be from what I've read here. Still, it's a two-edged sword, especially for those who want something in particular from their pirate re-enactment experience. This again suggests to me the benefit of belonging to a group of like-minded re-enactors if you are seeking any particular structure or another - either hardcore adherence to historical precepts or complete freedom from such.

[Hawkyns]

I think that's rather the point, Mission. We're all looking for a different experience. I'm looking to experience, as much as possible, life around ships and the docks in the 1680's. The modern side of pyrate reenacting, the pub crawling, the wacky competitions, the extolling of the latest movie- none of that interests me. Can I fire a gun from a pitching deck? Can I hold my own in a cutlass fight? Can I live for a week or more without any electricity or other modern convenience? Me against the late 17th c. Can I survive?

When I decide which festivals I'll go to, (For myself, not the sutlery) I base it on which will give me the best experience, same criteria that I would apply to an F&I event, a Rev War event, or an ECW muster. Will there be raucus, bawdy singing in the tavern or camp? Will I be able to wander down to the water and smoke a quiet pipe after dark and not see much of the mundane world. Will I be able to get the smells and stains of tar, seawater, wet wood, blackpowder smoke, strong tobacco on myself? Will we have a real battle, a scripted farbfest, or just weapons demos? It's all relative. Some have called this disgusting and icky. Slipping the bonds of time and experiencing the life is, to me, the best.

Some people like the relaxed atmosphere. As long as I know that's what I'm going into, in time to plan for it or say no thanks, that's OK. In every reenactment, of all periods, there will be dillettants and the hard core, and a bunch in between. It is why I do think we need some kind of organisation, not to run things, but to set a series of standards, from streetfair farbe through to hard core stitch counters so that we can all understand what is expected and avoid the problems.

Hawkyns

[Ransom]

Organized pirates? Isn't that an oxymoron?

And again, no offense intended, Hawkyns, but your battles are still a reenactment, just the same as any — in your words — farbfest. No one dies. No one is seriously injured. It is a fantasy battle, not a real one. Gritty, bruising, yes...real life or death, no.

Let's acknowledge that everyone has a different idea of how to play and leave it at that. It's what makes this forum interesting.

My wish is that someday we could have this same discussion without using such derogatory terms as Stitch Counter, Farbfest, Pollywood Schlock, etc. All of these terms have been used lately, on this thread and others. Just because we don't all play the same game, doesn't mean we should use insulting language to describe how the "other guy" plays. It's insulting to everyone.

[michaelsbagley]

It is why I do think we need some kind of organisation, not to run things, but to set a series of standards, from streetfair farbe through to hard core stitch counters so that we can all understand what is expected and avoid the problems.

Hawkyns

Cringe...

Hawkyns, how about not so much an organization, but rather than an agreed upon set of conventions the we agree to use here to describe events, particular the more re-enactment oriented ones (and all the permutations of that phrase)? I'm all for standards in the hobby, as long as they are optional and a personal choice, not a governing body mandate (there's enough of that in "real life", escaping that is one of my main loves of this hobby).

An agreed on set of terms and/or descriptives doesn't need management or leaders or any of those "ugly" terms some of the more anarchic of us shy away from or down right rail against. It just needs to be laid out, discussed, and agreed on by a fair majority of those of us who organize and run events, and then adhered to when posting about our events here (and trying to share and spread those terms and encouraging the usage of those definitions in other circles as well).

We can all differentiate: a pub crawl, a public historic display encampment, and private immersion encampment, and many other variations without needing to call it an organization. And as long as a majority is willing to be flexible on terms, and not dig their heels in too deeply about this term or that term applying to their idea and no one else's idea, it should be a fairly easy process. In my estimation would only take a few weeks to discuss out on the forum, and ensure lots of feedback is gotten regarding it. It will likely get frustrating at times, but I think it could work well. Flexibility to re-address the topic and the topic being stickied could make such a discussion have many long years of enduring value.

Or am I just splitting hairs on semantics here, and are we talking about the same thing in different terms?

[Hawkyns]

Nah, I think we're both on the same page, Michael. I don't much care what you call it- organisation, council of captains, whatever. I come from a military reenactment background, so that's the way my mind thinks. The important thing is that we have a set of standards or guidelines and that we hold to them. That way, nobody feels uncomfortable when going to an event, knowing what's expected.

Ransom, I would say that 70% of the events I go to have no battle, so that's not really a good example. No injuries? Gwen chopped her thumb half off splitting wood for the fire. I know two gunners who lost their arms in cannon accidents. A couple of years back at an F&I battle, someone forgot to remove their rammer and wound up pinning a native to a tree. I watched someone get pushed off a horse and dragged across the field when her foot didn't release from the stirrup. (She was back in the battle next day with a broken arm) Real weapons, combined with living the lifestyle, and people get hurt. The battles may not be real, the possibility of injury or death is still there.

Hawkyns

[Ransom]

Nah, I think we're both on the same page, Michael. I don't much care what you call it- organisation, council of captains, whatever. I come from a military reenactment background, so that's the way my mind thinks. The important thing is that we have a set of standards or guidelines and that we hold to them. That way, nobody feels uncomfortable when going to an event, knowing what's expected.

Ransom, I would say that 70% of the events I go to have no battle, so that's not really a good example. No injuries? Gwen chopped her thumb half off splitting wood for the fire. I know two gunners who lost their arms in cannon accidents. A couple of years back at an F&I battle, someone forgot to remove their rammer and wound up pinning a native to a tree. I watched someone get pushed off a horse and dragged across the field when her foot didn't release from the stirrup. (She was back in the battle next day with a broken arm) Real weapons, combined with living the lifestyle, and people get hurt. The battles may not be real, the possibility of injury or death is still there.

Hawkyns

This I can agree with completely. I have fought in armor ( and looked like I'd been beaten to a pulp). I have done jousting on horseback. For sure, shyte happens.

[Mission]

Nah, I like it the way it is. Put the events or the groups that form to participate in them at the center of the organizational requirements, not the hobby itself. Then each person can take responsibility for their individual participation by asking the event and group organizers if they're doing what that individual wants. Each person can then decide what they want to be involved with from there. This increases interest and participation in the general hobby, but allows those who want strictly elite-level or party-/fun-type activities to confine themselves to such.

Our world and many of its organizations, groups and people in it are gradually becoming less rule-bound and more flexible while still allowing people to chose their level of involvement in each aspect of the overall structure. I think what we're discussing here is just one small example of that. I expect we'll see more and more of that in the future if things continue along this path.

[Fox]

Organized pirates? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not in the slightest.

[captscurvy_nc]

Well now that I've been denied disability I am going back to being a full time pirate so I guess that changes my level of involvment since this is now my livelyhood since I can't get a job anywhere else. N o problem, I've done it before and I'll do it again

[Ransom]

Organized pirates? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not in the slightest.

Actually, that line was meant to be a little joke. I know in reality they could be very organized.

[Tartan Jack]

Nah, I think we're both on the same page, Michael. I don't much care what you call it- organisation, council of captains, whatever. I come from a military reenactment background, so that's the way my mind thinks. The important thing is that we have a set of standards or guidelines and that we hold to them. That way, nobody feels uncomfortable when going to an event, knowing what's expected.

Ransom, I would say that 70% of the events I go to have no battle, so that's not really a good example. No injuries? Gwen chopped her thumb half off splitting wood for the fire. I know two gunners who lost their arms in cannon accidents. A couple of years back at an F&I battle, someone forgot to remove their rammer and wound up pinning a native to a tree. I watched someone get pushed off a horse and dragged across the field when her foot didn't release from the stirrup. (She was back in the battle next day with a broken arm) Real weapons, combined with living the lifestyle, and people get hurt. The battles may not be real, the possibility of injury or death is still there.

Hawkyns

Agreed.

A general set of "standards of intended standards" (to make a silly title for the moment) would be a good idea.

When talking to Nathan before Pirates of Paynestown last year, I could tell both of us were fishing around to see if he wanted me to come and if it was the kind of event I thought worth a 500 mile/9 hour drive (each way). An "I adhere to ****** standards" would be good reference point. I used names of the people I had talked to at length when putting my stuff together and "bounced" ideas off of when talking and researching the GAoP. It turned out that we were pretty close in intents, but would have been easier to have some shorthand to figure it out.

I'd nominate Bagley, BlackJohn, and a few others (like Rats, from the Archangel crew-> the only one I've meet in person) as "point men" (used in general period sense, inclusive of women-kind too). for a good balance of historically accurate (always looking to be personally more accurate) yet balanced w/ a knowledge, guidance, and care for "newbies" who are tying to get there under under a tight budget and beginner understanding of the GAoP.

What about "Flying Gang Articles" (to use a phrase I've heard Foxe use to reference the Nassau pirates)?

[MarkG]

It is why I do think we need some kind of organisation, not to run things, but to set a series of standards, from streetfair farbe through to hard core stitch counters so that we can all understand what is expected and avoid the problems.

Hawkyns

Cringe...

Hawkyns, how about not so much an organization, but rather than an agreed upon set of conventions the we agree to use here to describe events, particular the more re-enactment oriented ones (and all the permutations of that phrase)? I'm all for standards in the hobby, as long as they are optional and a personal choice, not a governing body mandate (there's enough of that in "real life", escaping that is one of my main loves of this hobby).

An agreed on set of terms and/or descriptives doesn't need management or leaders or any of those "ugly" terms some of the more anarchic of us shy away from or down right rail against. It just needs to be laid out, discussed, and agreed on by a fair majority of those of us who organize and run events, and then adhered to when posting about our events here (and trying to share and spread those terms and encouraging the usage of those definitions in other circles as well).

We can all differentiate: a pub crawl, a public historic display encampment, and private immersion encampment, and many other variations without needing to call it an organization. And as long as a majority is willing to be flexible on terms, and not dig their heels in too deeply about this term or that term applying to their idea and no one else's idea, it should be a fairly easy process. In my estimation would only take a few weeks to discuss out on the forum, and ensure lots of feedback is gotten regarding it. It will likely get frustrating at times, but I think it could work well. Flexibility to re-address the topic and the topic being stickied could make such a discussion have many long years of enduring value.

Or am I just splitting hairs on semantics here, and are we talking about the same thing in different terms?

Without mentioning names or getting into politics, 17th century colonial and English Civil War reenacting never formed an umbrella organization but we have come to general agreements on how to conduct ourselves in a battle. Specifics like ramming or not or fencing rules are decided on by the host group for the event. It all works.

I will say that one thing that attracted me to piracy was the lack of military structure. After decades of military reenactments it is nice to have an every-man-for-himself battle. At the same time I have been concerned watching how some pirates handle their weapons. I think that an event that concentrated on weapons training would be useful.

Mark

[MarkG]

Organized pirates? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not in the slightest.

Disorganized pirates sail off in all directions and the prey gets away.

Mark

[Tartan Jack]

Great points, Mark.

The only thing that makes "pirate" unique is the sheer wide range of folks. I was thinking less "safety" and more "history" vs. ren faire vs. hollywood and the need for some sort of agreement statement as to what "history pirate" event would mean.

Most folks into 17th C colonial an English Civil War are likely coming to a general idea of what they are after from the beginning, coming to a more-or-less similar "place" quite quickly. Now, if some popular series (film or TV) or some mega-blockbuster film pops up, and people get into it coming from a completely different POV . . . things could get interesting.

Honestly, the "Capt Twill" brethren (and sistren) on here are probably more the unusual than the norm in "pirate" stuff. It seems to be growing, but isn't what most think what they "go play pirate" . . .

Instead of an organization, I'm thinking a generally agreed general statement that is a more verbal agreement as to "what we do" or "who I am" in the realm and range of "pirate" . . .

So, we can say, "I follow the idea/model/whatever of *******" and folks know what you mean w/o getting into enormous detail.

More a "statement" than a council or organization.

Based on what I saw and heard when I met you, Mark . . . your a model to be followed on how to do it -historical pirate- (esp. putting up w/ me and my inexperience on odd things ). I'm well open to your recommendations.

[LadyBarbossa]

We are 21st Century people who play a game of dress-up and who spend a lot of time pissing and moaning about the rules of the game and whether other people are playing fair.

Oh, how that Jimmy Buffett song rings so true... "I'm a pirate, 200 years too late..."

We are also fortunate to have so much free time on our hands to pursue things like re-enactment, rather than working ourselves to death just to survive in centuries past. We can thank all our advances in technology, farming, medicine, etc. for this hobby of ours, as we have something few generations before us had -- a lot of free time.

-- Hurricane

Free time? What free time? OK.. maybe I have a tad bit right now since I'm on here.. but that silence does NOT last for long. ::Looks at the clock, cringes as the kids will be bouncing over here in less than an hour::: Grrr... no free time here.

Organized pirates? Isn't that an oxymoron?

::ponders::: seems it, aye?

Ransom, I would say that 70% of the events I go to have no battle, so that's not really a good example. No injuries? Gwen chopped her thumb half off splitting wood for the fire. I know two gunners who lost their arms in cannon accidents. A couple of years back at an F&I battle, someone forgot to remove their rammer and wound up pinning a native to a tree. I watched someone get pushed off a horse and dragged across the field when her foot didn't release from the stirrup. (She was back in the battle next day with a broken arm) Real weapons, combined with living the lifestyle, and people get hurt. The battles may not be real, the possibility of injury or death is still there.

Hawkyns

This I can agree with completely. I have fought in armor ( and looked like I'd been beaten to a pulp). I have done jousting on horseback. For sure, shyte happens.

:::nodsnodsnods:: Guranteed, there will be SOME instance ye will have a flesh wound, be it minor or major. I don't think I've gone to an event without just the slightest cut. Hell, last pirate fest I went to, my pinhole pick for my guns had jabbed into (and damn near through) my finger. Didn't feel a bloody think but my finger was incredibly bloody by the end of the battle scenario. Sliced with flint, etc.. it's just one of the perks we historical folks get.

Well now that I've been denied disability I am going back to being a full time pirate so I guess that changes my level of involvment since this is now my livelyhood since I can't get a job anywhere else. N o problem, I've done it before and I'll do it again

Hear ye about the job issue. I tell ye... commandeering one of them fine ship - Genoa, Kalmar Nykel, etc - seems all th' more tantilizing. But no match to th' current world Navies... unfortunately.

~Lady B

[Quartermaster James]

Do I see the first juried pyrate event on the horizon...?

[Caraccioli]

Do I see the first juried pyrate event on the horizon...?

It sort of seems like a conflict of interests, but who knows? Maybe the fictional Order of the Leviathan can become the underpinnings of an umbrella organization.