Who Are We?

[Hawkyns]

Well, I'm going to throw this into the discussion, just because..

This is directed at those few who purport to want the full experience. They want to wear PC clothes, talk PC, shun nampy-pamby pirates, and get fully into the "head space" of a GAoP sailor.

Alrighty then..

Remember, this is a "Sod the public, we do this for ourselves, Total Experience event. So, in MHO this is what you would be required to do.

A) Work a ship — This is the biggy. Are you physically fit enough to climb rigging, sweat a line, haul in canvas and perform any other task, including basic maintenance? You would do this for weeks, night or day, good weather or bad, calm seas or rough. You would do this with little sleep, poor food, and do your "business" using a real ship's head.

Letter B (I keep getting a smiley face) Weapons — Sword, cutlass, boarding ax, whatever. Do you have the mental and physical skill to use said weapon with the intent of inflicting bodily harm, while at the same time defending yourself from someone with the same or greater skill, intent in inflicting bodily harm on you?

C) Black powder — Pistols, blunderbuss, etc. Can you break it down, clean it, put it back together, load it, aim, and fire, and hit something other than the broad side of a barn?

D) Guns — Can you load, fire, swab, and reload a cannon, swivel gun, or rail gun?

E) Hand-to-Hand — When the cannons are still, you have fired you last ball, and your cutlass is wedged into someone's ribcage, could you defend yourself fighting hand-to-hand, tooth and nail, against someone trying to exterminate you?

So, step up lads, don't be shy. Who amongst you can truly "Walk the Walk" of a GAoP sailor? Especially point A. Come on, you're a pirate b'Gawd. If ye can't work a ship, then what bloody good are ye? If ye can't work a ship, then your total experience is a bloody sham!

A) Yes. I've worked as a gunner on the Providence, the Quinnipiac, and the Half Moon. Hauled lines, stood watches in the freezing dawn, fired broadsides. As an Idler, I don't have to go aloft, but beyond that, yes. Food- lived on bully beef and biscuit when I've been in the woods for a week or so. The head? Talk to the Coast Guard. they have rules about that.

Yes. Been teaching swordplay for 20 plus years. Cutlass, broadsword, and rapier. No masks, no fancy armor, just blunted steel and bruises. and it is NOT choreographed. Working from period 16th/17th c manuals.

C) Yes. Handgonne, wheellock, matchlock, flintlock. Fired them all, cleaned them all, stripped and done maintainance on them. With the matchlock, smoothbore, unpatched, I can get 5 inch groups on our 50 yard range. Won the shooting competition at St. Mary's Cittie a bunch of times. Does that count?

D) Yes. I own 4 cannon. I've built carriages, both land and sea, for all of them. I've commanded land batteries of nine guns, and gundecks of 4 guns. Worked the orlop deck on the Half Moon on my knees, with the end of the rammer going under water as the ship heeled. Been artillery safety officer more times than I can count.

E) Yes. Our swordplay instruction includes hand to hand, grappling, whatever is needed.

Next?

Hawkyns

[captscurvy_nc]

I was a sailing instructer for 2 years and have crewed on a ship before. So yes, I know I could work on a ship. As far as weapons go, I have fought with everything from a boarding axe to a broken piece of timber. I truely believe you can't reennact something you've never flet which is why all my students have been through "the beating". They get full body gear and then get to experience a full on drag out hand to hand fight so they know what it's like to get hit without hurting themselves. It adds to their performance as well. I do not know as much about blackpowder pistols as I would like, but I know enough to do demonstrations for the public.I've also worked as a boincer at a really bad bar and grill in Garner NC where I've been shot at, stabbed in the leg and even thrown through a glass door. Doesn't sound like I did my job very well? I did, but that place was very "local" and very wild. So yes, I have had to defend myself against someone wanting to eliminate you. Not trying to compare a drunk local with a broken beer bottle toa pirate with a cutlass but it's close

[Capt. Sterling]

I can say yes to all the above as well and even made due with no coast guard about, but you know when it comes down to it, I haven't murdered anyone or robbed anyone, at least not that I am willing to admit. So basically none of us are truly living historians when it comes to piracy. But then I have assisted in a few arrests so perhaps that qualifies me as a pirate hunter.

[Ransom]

... but you know when it comes down to it, I haven't murdered anyone or robbed anyone, at least not that I am willing to admit. So basically none of us are truly living historians when it comes to piracy. But then I have assisted in a few arrests so perhaps that qualifies me as a pirate hunter.

Bingo!!!!! That's my point...exactly!

[Capt. Sterling]

See what I don't get here is so what? Everyone is entitled to play this game as they like...so why do so many folks take offense when some want to go as far as they can with it?

Edited April 1, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Mission]

See what I don't get here is so what? Everyone is entitled to play this game as they like...so why do so many folks take offense when some want to go as far as they can with it?

Yup. If I am going to do it the way I want to do it, then you should get to it the way you want to do it. Just as it's not for Hawkyns to tell me I have to stay in a tent to call myself a good re-enactor, neither is it for me to tell Hawkyns he shouldn't swear or do a skit where he shoots a priest to call himself a good re-enactor. Nor is it anyone else's place to say "You're only a real pirate re-enactor if you..." If you want to do that, start a group where you all agree to do that and I think you're fully justified. Otherwise, you're just trying to impose your beliefs about something on someone else. (Most of the trouble in this world is caused by such action.)

But, for the most part, I think everyone has pretty much agreed with this in this thread at this point.

[michaelsbagley]

I don't think anyone here gets upset about the idea of those who choose to taking as far as they like. But I will admit, when those who do so are the same as those who organize certain events (or are integral to organizing of certain events) there may be a misconception that said persons goals are the same as those of the event. I know I am horribly guilty of that. As much as I would prefer to see a greater number of "average joe" sailors/pirates, the Santa Maria event that I am very involved in the organization of and marketing of does not hold to that. Even though it may not be the case, people's associative nature may create the misconception whether it is the case or not. I think there was a great deal of discussion about associative thought during the last "hot-bed" topic... Apparently I remembered and perhaps learned something from it.

There is also the concern, that if at the same event as someone who is striving for this, how does someone who doesn't wish to immerse to that level interact or react to such a person should the need arise? It can make people feel very awkward to not know how to address someone at an event that is supposed to be fun for them.

There are a lot of other variable that likely float in people's subconsciousness during debates like this as well, those are just two examples I was able to come up with.

[Ransom]

See what I don't get here is so what? Everyone is entitled to play this game as they like...so why do so many folks take offense when some want to go as far as they can with it?

They shouldn't. Each to his own, sez I. However, I don't think you can call even the most intense re-enacting the Total Experience. We will never be able to recreate the past.

Oh, and to clarify my list, I don't mean "back in the day, I did this..." We could all do stuff "back in the day" that we can't do now. I meant, could you walk out of your house tomorrow, board a ship, and perform A - E on a ship at sea?

[Fox]

Wow, now there's a change. For once I'm the one who stayed on topic and didn't stir the pot. :)

C'mon Hurricane, let's have an argument, it'll be just like the old days

The fact is though, that there are thousands of hillbilly white-trash that will have no trouble when the zombies come.LoL

Hey, leave some for us Devon blokes!

Yes to A, C, D, and E. No to B, but I do usually portray a forced man.

That said (and back to Hawkyns' original theme), while I love the immersion aspect in the physical aspects of the past, I don't go much on the talking about period politics (for example) except as a modern academic discussion - I'm not from the 18thC and whether or not the Tories appear to be adopting Jacobite sympathies as a response to the Hanoverian restrictions on the Anglican form of worship makes not one iota of a difference to me, so I'm unable to defend either viewpoint. I can happily sit on my chest (most people use their backsides ) by the fire long after the public have gone slurping 'Sir Cloudesley' out of my Port Royal penis cup, while stirring the cauldron or singing period songs, but I'm still a 21st century bloke.

Other events I'm quite happy to get the guitar or bouzouki out, jam some 19thC sea-shanties, drink some Budvar (try it, you won't regret it) out of the bottle, and yarn long into the night about today's crap. I'm still a 21st century bloke.

[Hawkyns]

See what I don't get here is so what? Everyone is entitled to play this game as they like...so why do so many folks take offense when some want to go as far as they can with it?

Yup. If I am going to do it the way I want to do it, then you should get to it the way you want to do it. Just as it's not for Hawkyns to tell me I have to stay in a tent to call myself a good re-enactor, neither is it for me to tell Hawkyns he shouldn't swear or do a skit where he shoots a priest to call himself a good re-enactor. Nor is it anyone else's place to say "You're only a real pirate re-enactor if you..."

For the most part, I think everyone has pretty much agreed with this in this thread at this point.

Mission, I never said that or anything like it. All I was looking for was a better, more clear definition of what Living History is, what the participants can expect, and the ability to know it up front. And for the standards of the day to be enforced. I've NEVER said that people should not play at the level they are comfortable with. All I want to know is if it is advertised as a living history event, and I drag out the whole kit and live period for the weekend, I'm not going to be camped next to Jack Sparrow, expected to perform for the public in a non period way, or subjected to a wench walk.

Hawkyns

[captscurvy_nc]

Well I don't think anyone wants to deal with the hassels from killing someone during an event, but it is a valid point. I guess it would be the question of not have you, but could you? I can honestly say that put in the same situation as a GAOP pirate then yes, I would have no hesitation killing to protect myself. I didn't have any hesitation breaking the person's arm who tried to shoot me, it was just a reaction to the situation and my role in it. We all enjoy playing this game but do I think any of us arecold bloodied killers for the sake of being a killer? No. If we were put into the same position and employment as the characters we portray then I don't know. Could you honestly say that you could take a life for 10 sacks of sugar and some spices because you were ordered to? I don't think it makes me an less of a human being to say yes I could, it just means I would do whatever it took to survive. Don't take this the worng way, life is a precious thing and I would never harm another person without reason. But if it comes down to me or them, I'm walking (or limping) away, not them

[Capt. Sterling]

Oh, and to clarify my list, I don't mean "back in the day, I did this..." We could all do stuff "back in the day" that we can't do now. I meant, could you walk out of your house tomorrow, board a ship, and perform A - E on a ship at sea?

I for one wasn't speaking back in the day and hope very much to be alive and kicking still when the Luna is ready to set sail....yeah it hurts a lot more, but I still do it.

[hurricane]

As an artist, I paint with oils. I've never yet had an artist come up to me and tell me I should paint with acrylics instead or watercolors are the bomb. Nor has anyone corrected my brushstroke, saying this is the way Da Vinci did it. Some artists like to paint like the masters did, right down to replicating the pigments they used. Others take a larger approach or a more modern one.

And yet, the public sees it all as art. It is their own interpretations and tastes that dictate what they like and don't like, what they believe to be true and what they don't. And perhaps they see something they didn't know anything about, and do research on their own to learn more about a particular work, or style.

So, what's the real difference here? Hawkyns likes to go it alone and be submerge himself in the period, others like to teach, others like to create an overall interest in piracy and capture people's imagination so perhaps they learn more, or more important, want more pirate festivals because they really enjoyed the antics of the goofy Jack Sparrow guy. It's all good. It's all art and as artists, we have and always will have our own interpretations of it.

-- Hurricane

[Mission]

All I want to know is if it is advertised as a living history event, and I drag out the whole kit and live period for the weekend, I'm not going to be camped next to Jack Sparrow, expected to perform for the public in a non period way, or subjected to a wench walk.

Since that is important to you, it seems to me that you should make it a point to get a clear answer about it from the organizers. As I suggested before, if you can't and it really is that important, I suggest you would want to skip that event. (Yes, maybe they should be clearer on this point when they call it 'Living History,' but as I said before, this term does not have a specific legal definition, so you can't expect rely on it to mean the same thing to others as it does to you. Unfortunately, since it appears to be of greater importance to you than it is to most others, the onus is on you to get a straight answer so that you know you'll be satisfied on that point.)

[captscurvy_nc]

Amen to the pain Capt. but I plan on sailing on the Adventurer when they finish building her in Bath NC. As far as the question could I walk out of my house tomorrow and do A through E? Yes, I belive I could, but that doesn't mean I will. If I had no son and nothing to loose, then I would have a different answer.

[Capt. Sterling]

Agreed Capt. Scurvy... and when it comes down to it my family comes first, unless I drag em with me to events...but then I don't hear them complaining. I don't think any one here has actually made the claim ever to being a real pirate/privateer/pirate hunter...although it looks like Foxe has to remind himself that he's really a 21st century bloke...

Edited April 1, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[captscurvy_nc]

I as well would never make the claim to being a real pirate/privateer/pirate hunter. I will make the claim that I have the ability to put morales aside when it comes to survival, and this is coming from a preachers kid. I also think it has a lot to do with how you are raised. If you were taught to sew not as a hobby but because your family couldn't afford new clothes and have survived on nothing more than ramen noodles and saltine crackers stolen from restaurants, then you are more likely to have a survilist mentallity that would allow for you to survive as a pirate when it comed down to the dirty business. Just my opinion.

[callenish gunner]

Ransom, as I have previously stated on this forum(not in this thread), yes, I have done all the items you listed. But, for me that was years ago and time and tide do take their toll on any persons body. That's why for the most part the sea was usually a young man's game. For those who stayed at sea during their old age they usually became cooks or sail makers or more skilled needed craftsmen aboard ships. If they couldn't work aboard ships they would try to find work on the docks or in port towns.

I wish I could go back in time and avoided some of the incidents that did the damage that have caused my life to change directions, Until I was in my mid fifties I was quite fit and was still sparring and competing in Ken-do tournaments and I worked as a bouncer in North Philly(Feltonville) bar.

But as far as "back in the day" what stopped me would have killed me then. Not bitchin' that I'm still alive but I still enjoy a bit of a challenge.

[Salty]

ok, here is my two cents,

yes i am working one a protrayl of a goodwife, or working class female. to play the part true, i have only a few options, i dont wear my glasses and make brooms, pottery, or beg for my bread. OR I wear my modern glasses and interacte as a teacher of this is how we are trying to protray aspects of life back then. for example, cooking and handicrafts. for me i mostly feel like just one more body in camp, i stick to the camp and do what ever i may to help explain that this is likely how certain aspects would have been done in the time period. Am i saying that my gear and garb is 100 % true to what it would have been, no. It is what i have til i learn and do better.

please understand that my take on history is that, it is a personal story that has been passed down to us or more likley inferrred from documents, letters, papers,books, etc. What makes this a great hobby is that we can take our modern capacity for learning the past and try to come up with plausible ways to share a moment in time with the public and each other. I have for my part NEVER heard anyone say that i lived in this time and this is the exact way that I did it before (unless as a joke).

for some one that is leagally blind, my choices would have been serverly limited in this time, if i had survived at all, and given my medical issues i would not have to worry about that having occured. So do i want to be a begger which is probably not allowed at most events..... or play the line as part actress and part educator. i chose the latter.

ye ships potter,

salty

[captscurvy_nc]

Ransom, as I have previously stated on this forum(not in this thread), yes, I have done all the items you listed. But, for me that was years ago and time and tide do take their toll on any persons body. That's why for the most part the sea was usually a young man's game. For those who stayed at sea during their old age they usually became cooks or sail makers or more skilled needed craftsmen aboard ships. If they couldn't work aboard ships they would try to find work on the docks or in port towns.

I wish I could go back in time and avoided some of the incidents that did the damage that have caused my life to change directions, Until I was in my mid fifties I was quite fit and was still sparring and competing in Ken-do tournaments and I worked as a bouncer in North Philly(Feltonville) bar.

But as far as "back in the day" what stopped me would have killed me then. Not bitchin' that I'm still alive but I still enjoy a bit of a challenge.

I would have been shot and put out of my misery between my back problems and hip replacement. But thanks to modern medicine I am fighting and acting again

[Ransom]

Although I did direct my questions to those wanting the Total Experience, I will, for the sake of continuity, if nothing else, answer my own questions. However, I have never wished for the Full Monty, sort-to-speak.

A) I have had limited experience crewing on a 72' schooner, and will again in June. I have not sailed at night, nor in bad weather, therefore I would not presume to call myself a sailor.

Letter B - I do have a very nice Windlass sword. Am I a danger? Only to myself. I would very much like to learn at least stage fighting, or maybe some live steel action, but as yet that opportunity has not presented itself. I would never attempt to inflict bodily harm on anyone, and sincerely hope no one would wish to inflict bodily harm on me.

C) I currently do not own any black powder weapons. However, thanks to Red-Handed Jill, I have fired her pistol both on land and on a moving vessel. It was only a powder charge, and there were no barns in sight, so I have no idea how good a shot I would be.

D) I am part of the cannon crew at both NorCal and Ojai. I have made powder charges, maned a slow match, and fired cannons both on shore and on a moving vessel (while also working the ship).

E) Hand-to-Hand combat? Who me? No thankee. At only 5'6" and around 118 lbs, I wouldn't stand a chance. LOL

Who am I? I am not an actor—that's why I write and do artwork. I am good with a crowd if I have a specific task to do, but to ad-lib, I am terrible. I am good at answering questions, but I can't speak in a fake Irish, Pyrate, or whatever, accent. I feel silly. My garb is not made of fake satin. As a rule I wear a man's clothes, and have been mistaken for a slightly-built male, which is the idea. However, I don't care if my collar isn't right for the period, or my coat sleeve is three inches too long. I wear boots. Not bucket boots, but more of a high riding boot. They worked fine on board. In other words, I'm close to PC, but I'll win no cigars. And I have a hell of a good time with the Tales of the Seven Seas crewe.

[LadyBarbossa]

Well, I'm going to throw this into the discussion, just because..

This is directed at those few who purport to want the full experience. They want to wear PC clothes, talk PC, shun nampy-pamby pirates, and get fully into the "head space" of a GAoP sailor.

Alrighty then..

Remember, this is a "Sod the public, we do this for ourselves, Total Experience event. So, in MHO this is what you would be required to do.

A) Well, I haven't had th' opportunity to work aboard a ship before. I'm not really physically fit enough to do all the climbing (not like I use to do when I was a kid. But I would be willing to do what I am able to do aboard a vessel and learn what is what. Granted reading books and researching is not quite like hands-on experience, but it does help compared to being ignorant.

B ) I joined a local swordfighting group that teaches and trains you to actually weld the weapon, not just choreographed swordfighting. Some members use the massive broadswords or the elegant rapier, some use a staff and the shield. What wounds we gained and gave were real, not fake but most definitely not intentional. Luckily, we keep safety in mind, too. I've attempted to work with a tomahawk (for fun) at events just to take a moment from cooking and whatever else. So, yeah... weapons of this sort.. yup.

C) Yeah, I can break down my carbine, clean it and put it back together and all. I can roll cartidges (granted it's been a while), load the gun, etc. This I can do and am willing to do.

D) Never had the opportunity to work with a cannon, but I sure would love to!

E) :::evil grinz::: Oh, HELL yes! I used to be in Arnis (Filipino Stick Fighting) so I can use my hands or any object as a weapon. Otherwise, I willing to learn.

All in all, what I can't do and don't do... I am willing/wanting to learn!

See what I don't get here is so what? Everyone is entitled to play this game as they like...so why do so many folks take offense when some want to go as far as they can with it?

Just go with the flow of what you can do I suppose. One is only limited by the ideas they have.

~Lady B

[captscurvy_nc]

I think that is what keeps a lot of us in this game. We continue to want to learn more about the things we can't do...yet. I know with me it's a desire to learn more about black powder weapons and to continue to learn more and more about combat.

[Bos'n Cross]

Well ill throw in my little bit...so here is the black mans point of view.........

As most of you know, im quite the little history lover....and im also quite the ham...i love acting and playing a part quite a bit.....so im on the immersion part of the table...........bbuuttt i often find that most others arnt quite as into the characterization aspect.........many members of my crew are, and thats one of the reasons i really wanted to join the archangels....but on that very same side i rreaallyy like education...the only problem is is i find alot of tourists dont quite understand the first person portrails at first....and sadly dont even really seem to want to hear anything more than pyrates this and pyrates that....which stemps from events being labled as "pirates" stuff...id rather things be called "maritime festivals" which then may or MAY not include pyrates, but would definitely have sailors......but i slightly digress...........As for me, i try my best to remind people that not all was fun and games, i also try to stress the point that first and foremost i am a sailor(like many here that is im actual job), at one time or another i may have done a few illegal things...but im still a sailor........now adays im also trying to talk aboyt ships and carpentry(which actually seems to work well for 1) Getting their attention 2) Not being called a pirate all the time...............as well as talking about the role of africans at the time..... the times that i think i got the best message through was when i laid out the truths of slavery.....as the ONLY BLACK GUY its my obligation.........i am aware that i do indeed make light of alot of horrors in the world...but if you really get me going...well you get the point.....when people ask me "where there really any black pirates?" and i lay out the ungly truth...and they respond "wow i never would have though that, that so interesting" then thats when i feel the best...if i stayed in character(like at mta when an older gentlemen unleashed a torrent of persona related questions, that i answered quite well,silkie was there lol) than i feel eevveenn better about it...im not sure what to call that(living history education ..?), but thats what im after when ever i go to an event.........that and to make a group of old ladies turn whiter from me saying something thats utterly racist and brash......after all...i love to be bad ...mmuuahahaha.....so there you have it my pale faced friends.....the ramblings of israel cross.........

[captscurvy_nc]

Well ill throw in my little bit...so here is the black mans point of view.........

As most of you know, im quite the little history lover....and im also quite the ham...i love acting and playing a part quite a bit.....so im on the immersion part of the table...........bbuuttt i often find that most others arnt quite as into the characterization aspect.........many members of my crew are, and thats one of the reasons i really wanted to join the archangels....but on that very same side i rreaallyy like education...the only problem is is i find alot of tourists dont quite understand the first person portrails at first....and sadly dont even really seem to want to hear anything more than pyrates this and pyrates that....which stemps from events being labled as "pirates" stuff...id rather things be called "maritime festivals" which then may or MAY not include pyrates, but would definitely have sailors......but i slightly digress...........As for me, i try my best to remind people that not all was fun and games, i also try to stress the point that first and foremost i am a sailor(like many here that is im actual job), at one time or another i may have done a few illegal things...but im still a sailor........now adays im also trying to talk aboyt ships and carpentry(which actually seems to work well for 1) Getting their attention 2) Not being called a pirate all the time...............as well as talking about the role of africans at the time..... the times that i think i got the best message through was when i laid out the truths of slavery.....as the ONLY BLACK GUY its my obligation.........i am aware that i do indeed make light of alot of horrors in the world...but if you really get me going...well you get the point.....when people ask me "where there really any black pirates?" and i lay out the ungly truth...and they respond "wow i never would have though that, that so interesting" then thats when i feel the best...if i stayed in character(like at mta when an older gentlemen unleashed a torrent of persona related questions, that i answered quite well,silkie was there lol) than i feel eevveenn better about it...im not sure what to call that(living history education ..?), but thats what im after when ever i go to an event.........that and to make a group of old ladies turn whiter from me saying something thats utterly racist and brash......after all...i love to be bad ...mmuuahahaha.....so there you have it my pale faced friends.....the ramblings of israel cross.........

Again, the point is made that it all depends on the group you sign on with.