Jacobite Politics

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Interesting.

I think is should be said that the pirates created their own subculture in the existing society rather than “own society”.

Though there are still some sings of rather comprehensive defiance

Here some:

Johnson in GHP (yes, yes it is Johnson....) in page 176 in the section of Howel Davis

”After this, a Counsel of War was called over a large Bowl of Punch, at which it was proposed to chuse a Commander; the Election was soon over, for it fell upon Davis by a great Majority of legal Pollers, there was no Scrutiny demanded, for all acquiesced in the Choice: As soon as he was possess'd of his Command, he drew up Articles, which were signed and sworn to by himself and the rest, then he made a short Speech, the sum of which, was, a Declaration of War against the whole World.”

Also there is this, probably tough mainly rhetorical quote from (I think) Johnson (again...)

Low and his crew turned pirate, determined "to go in her, make a black Flag and declare War against all the World."

Also using a quote from Republic of Pirates (originally in an account of Edward North who was captured by Vane)

Charles Vane’s pirates toasted “damnation to King George”, the government and “all the higher powers”

The term “all the higher powers” is unclear but…. Vane and his crew had certainly Jacobite sympathies, but they seemed to have also more generic resentment.

Also, then there are almost antireligious (perhaps not the most correct word... ) signs which show some more defiance. Certainly it might be just drunken talk and just one case.

At least accordingly to "The Pirate Hunter: The True Story of Captain Kidd" (book by Richard Zacks) one pirate captain (who might be found here to be John Taylor, the follower of Ed England) said

"If we swing our grappling hooks onto the clouds and attack Heaven itself, I'd aim my first shot at God."

Not necessarily anti-Jacobite at all but....

Edited January 8, 2014 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

Interesting.

I think is should be said that the pirates created their own subculture in the existing society rather than “own society”.

Of course! Any group of people who do things slightly differently to other groups could be called a subculture. Society is made up entirely of subcultures.

The question is, what differences were there between the pirate subculture and other subcultures? This is the question I've spent the last four years trying to answer and the answer is (in my opinion of course) "not much". So far as I can see, every identifiable aspect of pirate social culture was rooted in practices that already existed elsewhere in legitimate maritime or land-based society. This is a huge topic and probably deserves its own thread if anyone wants to pursue it further.

As for 'declaring war on the world', the phrase appears often enough in contemporary records to make me sure that some pirates really said it. How many of them really meant it is another question, and one that can't really be answered satisfactorily. Davis may have said it - Johnson probably had some good sources for his chapter on Davis - but Davis was a known Jacobite. The same goes for Vane who was probably more of a committed Jacobite than any other pirate. Low may have meant it, none of his recorded actions suggest that he didn't mean it (which is not the same as saying that he did).

The Taylor quote, if I remember rightly, was more a case of bravado and defending his own courage than an anti-clerical statement, but other pirates are certainly known to have expressed irreligious sentiments.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Davis may have said it - Johnson probably had some good sources for his chapter on Davis - but Davis was a known Jacobite. The same goes for Vane who was probably more of a committed Jacobite than any other pirate.

Yes, I was not trying to make those pirates seem not Jacobites. Also, I have a mental picture (which doesn't mean much) that Vane was perhaps the leading die-hard Jacobite of the Bahamian flying gang.

As for the subculture of pirates... It seems to be pretty similar than those of English seamen in general but perhaps with some additional profanity.

Also, while sometimes exaggerated pirate crews at least a number of them, in 1700s were clearly more egalitarian than naval of Merchant crews (privateers were in between naval and pirate ships it seems). While it can be understood in various ways (like it has been done...) this was clearly something rather special for the pirates (or their subculture (but the word doesn't seem to be good in this purpose)) of 1600s and 1700s. At least to some extent.

Another interesting thing: There are several instances when Bellamy's crew said that they were "Ro(b)bin Hood's men". I think that was actually what one witness told. There is clearly some ideological thing in the background, while the seriousness of it is questionable....

oops. I am soon going off the topic, but that was related to pirates' ideology.

Neither am I aware particularly that Jacobites opposed or supported the Act of Union. The first flag you posted remained in use, especially by private ships, long after 1707. Again, I'd have to check on the exact date, but I believe the Union flag was still specifically reserved for naval vessels until fairly late.

Well indeed... The union was not really often resisted by Jacobites (I found here something about the subject: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/union/features_union_jacobites.shtml )

Another interesting notion about one pirate:

While it was not merely a Scottish thing Jacobitism was certainly more common among them than other Britons (?) Stede Bonnet's pirates drank Jacobite toasts and he had "Royal James". His clearly Jacobite crew had almost unusually number of Scotchmen compared to some other crews. Several were from Aberdeen (A notable Jacobite region I think) and Glasgow. Majority were elsewhere, but the ratio is still rather interesting compared to that most seamen were usually from London.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

Yes, I was not trying to make those pirates seem not Jacobites. Also, I have a mental picture (which doesn't mean much) that Vane was perhaps the leading die-hard Jacobite of the Bahamian flying gang.

You're probably right there. The most aggressive pirate Jacobitism was found amongst the Bahamas pirates who remained after the 1718 schism, and Vane was the most prominent of those pirates.

As for the subculture of pirates... It seems to be pretty similar than those of English seamen in general but perhaps with some additional profanity.

Also, while sometimes exaggerated pirate crews at least a number of them, in 1700s were clearly more egalitarian than naval of Merchant crews (privateers were in between naval and pirate ships it seems). While it can be understood in various ways (like it has been done...) this was clearly something rather special for the pirates (or their subculture (but the word doesn't seem to be good in this purpose)) of 1600s and 1700s. At least to some extent.

Certainly there was a notable level of swearing amongst pirates, many people commented on it.

Egalitarianism is a much more thorny issue, and one that has a lot of myths attached to it. For example, we are often told that pirates' division of loot was much more equal than other maritime trades, but although it was much more equal than the Royal Navy and some privateers there were loads of merchant ships on which the master/captain only got 2.5 times the wage of the crew, and in many cases it was no more than 1.5 times the wage of the crew. The standard contract on Newfoundland fishing vessels was that the skipper got two shares and the crew got one each. By making comparisons like that it seems there was nothing extraordinary about the pirates' pay divisions.

Another interesting thing: There are several instances when Bellamy's crew said that they were "Ro(b)bin Hood's men". I think that was actually what one witness told. There is clearly some ideological thing in the background, while the seriousness of it is questionable....

opps. I am soon going off the topic, but that was related to pirates' ideology.

Yes, that's a very interesting quote (it's from one of the trials originally). Pity there's no real way of telling what they meant by it. To a modern reader, especially one who has read around the subject of pirates, it's tempting to assume that they were referring to a "rob the rich to feed the poor" mentality, but whether that's actually what they meant or whether they were referring to some other attribute of Robin Hood's and is impossible to tell.

While it was not merely a Scottish thing Jacobitism was certainly more common among them than other Britons (?)

That may have been true at the time of the '45 rebellion, but not really at the height of the Jacobite threat between around 1714 and 1723 (familiar sounding dates?). At that time Jacobitism was as common in England and the colonies as much as in Scotland. If you're interested in the subject then Paul Kleber Monod's book Jacobitism and the English People is essential reading. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jacobitism-English-People-1688-1788-Kleber/dp/0521447933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389304670&sr=8-1&keywords=monod+jacobitism

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Certainly there was a notable level of swearing amongst pirates, many people commented on it.

Egalitarianism is a much more thorny issue, and one that has a lot of myths attached to it. For example, we are often told that pirates' division of loot was much more equal than other maritime trades, but although it was much more equal than the Royal Navy and some privateers there were loads of merchant ships on which the master/captain only got 2.5 times the wage of the crew, and in many cases it was no more than 1.5 times the wage of the crew. The standard contract on Newfoundland fishing vessels was that the skipper got two shares and the crew got one each. By making comparisons like that it seems there was nothing extraordinary about the pirates' pay divisions.

Interesting

The merchant vessels, I presume, cannot be placed in the same box as their cargo, size, captains all varied greatly.... But really many pirates had been in the Navy and among privateers, so they much have felt that it was more egalitarian. And there is the whole thing about voting. Many privateers had rather similar system is seems, but it was certainly different than than in the Navy or in common merchant service. (or not?) There are also free food and drink in the common store in many ships etc.

Also, the pirate treasure was so much bigger compared to income from fishing or small scale trading and since the fishers income was, I would presume, so low everyone needed to get something that they could live.

But indeed. Even the wages mentioned in Woodard's Republic of Pirates show similar distribution. E.g merchant captain's annual income was about £65 and able seaman aboard same ship got £33.

That may have been true at the time of the '45 rebellion, but not really at the height of the Jacobite threat between around 1714 and 1723 (familiar sounding dates?). At that time Jacobitism was as common in England and the colonies as much as in Scotland. If you're interested in the subject then Paul Kleber Monod's book Jacobitism and the English People is essential reading. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jacobitism-English-People-1688-1788-Kleber/dp/0521447933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389304670&sr=8-1&keywords=monod+jacobitism

Well.... It is just that there is the image about highlanders and Rob Roy in your head even when you know it is not that simple at all. Actually I have read some parts of that book (including but not limited to the section of Jacobite underworld) Though I don't have really good image about the whole thing yet (I must admit).

Edited January 10, 2014 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

Interesting

The merchant vessels, I presume, cannot be placed in the same box as their cargo, size, captains all varied greatly.... But really many pirates had been in the Navy and among privateers, so they much have felt that it was more egalitarian. And there is the whole thing about voting. Many privateers had rather similar system is seems, but it was certainly different than than in the Navy or in common merchant service. (or not?) There are also free food and drink in the common store in many ships etc.

Also, the pirate treasure was so much bigger compared to income from fishing or small scale trading and since the fishers income was, I would presume, so low everyone needed to get something that they could live.

But indeed. Even the wages mentioned in Woodard's Republic of Pirates show similar distribution. E.g merchant captain's annual income was about £65 and able seaman aboard same ship got £33.

True, many pirates had served in the Royal Navy, but I don't know of any pirate (and bear in mind that records do not allow for a complete analysis) who had served only in the Royal Navy.

As to whether pirates earned more or not, after 18 months of quite successful cruising Bellamy's company on the Whydah were able to share out £50 per man which, compared to the figures you quote above is good but not spectacular. Some pirates certainly made a huge amount, like Every's crew who shared approximately £1,000 per man after 3 years, but they were the very lucky ones.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Having finally a possibility to read Snelgare's account:

Something that support the simple idea that I mentioned earlier: "Pirates as outlaws could show their Jacobitism more directly as they had nothing to fear as they were criminals already."

Snelgrave wrote about Captain Cocklyn

"Then he drank several other Healts amongs which was that of the Pretender, by the name of King James the Third, and thereby I found they were doubly on the side of the gallows, both as Traitors and Pirates."

Though I would also observe that Cocklyn drank to other people healts too, not just James' (Though the others might have been something like his family members, fellow pirates of Jacobite politicians like Wyndham or Ormond...). It seems that, at least by Snelgrave, drinking a Jacobite toast was considered to be more than just “rattling the nerves of the authorities”.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Swashbuckler 1700