Jacobite Politics

[The Island]

Do you guys think most pirates followed Jacobite politics during the golden age and used this to back their activities?

[Daniel]

For my part, no.

I have found evidence of Jacobite sympathies among only three pirate crews. Stede Bonnet renamed his sloop the Royal James, and one of his captives saw Bonnet's men drinking the health of James Stuart, the "Old Pretender." Some of Ned Low's men may have been Jacobites, according to George Roberts, who was almost killed by the quartermaster when he suggested that George I was king; the quartermaster already bore him a grudge, however. Richard Tookerman, Bonnet's would-be rescuer and a small-time pirate, was accused of firing off a gun in honor of James Stuart's birthday.

On the other hand, at least one of Bartholomew Roberts' Lords was strongly anti-Jacobite, his father having been a "sufferer in Monmouth's rebellion" and consequently strongly anti-Catholic.

The name Queen Anne's Revenge, used both by Blackbeard and by Edward England for one of his prizes, is no real evidence of Jacobitism. Real Jacobites supported James Stuart, or his son Charles, not Anne; Anne herself supported the Hanoverian succession, not the Jacobite heirs.

Even among those few pirates who showed Jacobite sympathies, there's no sign that they took the Jacobite cause at all seriously. Pirate participation in the 1715 and 1745 Jacobite uprisings was nil. I have seen no evidence whatsoever of any communication between James Stuart at the French royal court and any of the pirates. No supposedly Jacobite pirate ever put his money where his mouth was by contributing any of his plunder to one of the Stuart heirs. The Jacobitism shown by Bonnet, Low, and Tookerman was probably purely opportunist, intended to help them angle for a royal pardon in case the Stuarts returned to the throne. This is shown above all by the fact that, once the Hanoverian king offered the pirates a pardon, the vast majority of them delightedly accepted it, and no more was heard about Jacobitism among them.

[Liam McMac]

Well this is one pirate who will fight for the Stuart line again in '45.... 'Jacobitism' aside... I just hate the Anglish... Thats why I like these Yankees

From my reading.... many people throughout Europe had Jacobite ideals although few of them acctualy acted on such ideals. It was kind of like the PUNK movement in the past 30+ years. There were the real 'hard-core' followers who felt that they should rebel and fight.... and it went all the way down to the people who just debated it and drank and sang songs to the cause.

I'm sure many low level pirates were 'Jacobites' but Unless the whole crew wished to get involved, I'm sure most crews just stuck to robbing whoever they could.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Liam McMac

[The Island]

Daniel,

Dont forget La Bouche, and Cocklyn. Snelgrave reported that they were Jacobite sympathizers when they were boozing it up in the Bird Galley and saying some nasty remarks towards the King.

[Mission]

Funny, I was thinking of Snelgrave's account when you asked this. My impression of that conversation is that it was more for show than than it was an expression of hard-core political leanings. If I am remembering it rightly, they seemed to be using this as an excuse for misbehavior towards someone who would disagree.

No matter who was in power, the pirates would have naturally to be opposed to their rule unless the monarchy was inclined to make them "lawful" privateers. And if they're true pirates taking English ships, they're never going to square with the monarchy. So I tend to side with Daniel on this one based on what I've read thus far.

[Fox]

Pop quiz: What did Cocklyn and co re-name the Bird Galley, and what's its significance?

Ship names can be an interesting pointer to all sorts of things. Rediker (in Villains of All Nations) suggests that the most common theme found in pirate ships' names 1716-1726 was revenge.

I think actually that Queen Anne's Revenge probably does have Jacobite significance, for a handful of reasons, not least because Edward England had other ships with Jacobite names.

On the other hand, Richard Hawkins reported that when Spriggs' crew heard of the death of George I they dipped their black flag to half mast and drank toasts to his son "calling him by the name of George the second"

Ought to clear up one misunderstanding though: Jacobitism had nothing whatsoever to do with hating the English.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Foxe

[Liam McMac]

Ought to clear up one misunderstanding though: Jacobitism had nothing whatsoever to do with hating the English.

Right... but this Jacobite does

[Daniel]

Pop quiz: What did Cocklyn and co re-name the Bird Galley, and what's its significance?

He renamed her the Windham Galley (and yes, I had to look that up; I didn't know it off the top of my head). But the significance escapes me.

[The Island]

In England a Bird is reference to a girl. Maybe Queen Anne?? I am taking a long shot in the dark and getting drunk on Bushmills....Talking about COCKLYN I like in Breverton's book, he calls Thomas "Jeremiah" Cocklyn. I cant believe how twisted the names and stories get as other authors write. La Bouche named the ship Bird Galley and took it over and no wait Thomas "Jeremiah Johnson" Cocklyn took it over. What, I want is to see Ed Foxe write a History of Piracy book detailed with every pirate captain mentioned. I like your style of writing this would be a good book instead of seeing the 1000th book of Pirates written by Konstam about the same thing just with a different title each time . No offense to Mr. Konstam. Ni lia duine na tuairim!!! I am officaly drunk sorry its the booze talking and my Irish is coming out..

[Captain McCool]

This is quite fascinating to me. I've always been interested in ties between piracy and Jacobitism, as the Jacobites were bittlerly oppressed in many parts of the UK during that period, and it would seem natural to me that many of them turned to piracy because of it. In fact, the persona of Jack McCool is supposed to be the son of an Irish Jacobite Rapparee, who still retains a lot of political resentment towards the Monarchy, if not the Church of England precisely.

[Capn' Mac]

Speaking as a devoted Jacobite and a briny brother of the coast, it has been my research that the two simply did not overlap at all. The men that took to the call of fortune at least in the 18^th century were more often than not escaping the clutches of politics, governance, and the rigor and strife of regular Navy life. Even those working on a merchant vessel were subject to the whim of the Ship’s Master and the governmental and Commerce regulations of the day. To show support for one form of government over another just didn’t enter into it regardless of National preference.

In fact some questionable types were partly responsible for shipping Scottish slaves to the New World after The Clearances. If there was money to be had, it often went to the unscrupulous soul who was willing to take it. Let’s not forget in our romanticism of piracy that these men were out for themselves , not for a cause especially one that was bound to fail and was largely given only lip service to be ‘en vogue’.

That being said, I'll echo my favorite words: "Speed bonny boat like a bird on the wing. Onward the sailor's cry. Carry the lad, who's born to be King, over the seas to Skye."

[Fox]

Right... but this Jacobite does

Would it be impertinent of me to ask a: why you are a Jacobite, and b: why you hate the English?

I wonder if I could get away with proclaiming my hatred for Americans...

Anyway... The Bird was renamed Windham Galley (well done Daniel), almost certainly after Sir William Windham, Tory MP and leading Jacobite plotter. Davis and England both had ships called Ormonde after the Duke of that title, who was also a leading Jacobite figure. Royal Rover, as well as being the name of one of Davis/Roberts' ships was also a moniker given to James Stuart in Jacobite prose and poetry. Several pirates (England, Bonnet, Davis, Roberts) had ships called Royal James, or King James

As I said above, Rediker reckoned the most common theme in pirate ship names was 'revenge', and he found eight ships so named. At the same time there were at least fourteen ships with Jacobite names. The fact that Cocklyn's crew at least were naming ships after Tory MPs suggests that the somewhat romantic view of pirates trying to escape society might have to be re-examined.

The difficulty with Jacobitism is that it is one of the most widely misunderstood phenomena in history. Jacobitism was adopted by people from all over Britain and indeed the colonies, not just the hairy Scots and Irish. Neither did it have anything to do with Celtic independence or hatred of the English - if anything it was rooted in a hatred of the Germans. A large proportion of the forces used to quash the armed insurrections in Scotland were Scottish.

Defining 'Jacobites' is also extremely problematic. At one end of the scale there were those who took up arms in support of their cause, but they probably only represent a small proportion; at the other end there were those who did no more than drink toasts to James Stuart. In one way or another they were all Jacobites. Jacobitism was also more or less popular at different times, with levels of 'popular' plebiean support for the Jacobites rising and falling in tune with current events. Thoroughly recommend Paul Monod's JACOBITISM AND THE ENGLISH PEOPLE for those interested.

One day I may get round to writing a book about them all, but I can't imagine it will be soon... or cheap...

[Mission]

Liam, meet Ed Fox (Foxe), native of the England.

(Ed, you could say it, but you'd probably get a lot of flack given then the vast majority of the posters are American. Make fun of the Welsh instead. They seem to be under-represented just now. (Where's dt when you need him?))

My impression of the Snelgrave account was that it was in the drinking toasts variety and was aimed at raising the ire of the someone who would disagree with them. Which to me suggests it was mainly used by them (in that instance at least) to bait someone.

[Daniel]

Liam was, I should hope, merely describing his persona's feelings toward the English in a historically accurate way, from a time when bitter ethnic hatreds were rife. Not venting any personal dislike against America's staunchest ally and her people.

Foxe, I realize that there were plenty of English and colonial Jacobites, but amongst the Scots (who were mostly Protestant, after all) was there some element of Scottish nationalism in their Jacobitism, as the Stuarts had originally been kings of Scotland long before they gained the English crown? I realize there would be some historical absurdity in the Scots holding up the Stuarts as national icons, since the Scots had rebelled against Charles I Stuart before the English did, but by the 1690s maybe the Scots had forgotten about that episode?

[Fox]

I was only jesting, don't to start a brawl. Hence the winky fellow at the end.

I do wonder though how making fun of the Welsh would help me to stand out...

Regarding the question of Scottish nationalism and Jacobitism, it might perhaps be worth wondering whether the success of Jacobitism was likely to lead to independence. It's unlikely to say the least. There's no evidence that James Stuart would have reversed the Act of Union, instigated btw by Queen Anne, a Stuart. It was James I, I believe, that so delighted in the new-coined term, "Great Britain". Scottish Jacobites in arms were more than happy to fight alongside English Jacobites and against Scottish Government troops.

[Capn' Mac]

Would it be impertinent of me to ask a: why you are a Jacobite, and b: why you hate the English?

I can also only assume this is a persona thing as many supporters of the Hanoverians were also Scots. Nor can it be called a "Protestant vs. Catholic" this late in the game either.

The fact that Cocklyn's crew at least were naming ships after Tory MPs suggests that the somewhat romantic view of pirates trying to escape society might have to be re-examined.

Not so romantic really. I would refer to "The History of Piracy" by Phillip Gosse specifically Chapter IV entitled The Jacobean Pirates as well as "Raiders and Rebels: The Golden Age of Piracy" by Frank Sherry, chapter 2 entitled A Brilliant Time, a Brutal Time and chapter 3 A Seaman's Lot. These paint a clear picture of the horrors of life ashore for the general public and the brutality a man at sea suffered in the Navy or aboard a merchant vessel. Piracy was often truly a better solution or at the very least the lesser of all evils to be endured.

In defining oneself as a Jacobite ones has to look past Nationality and be able to answer the question “Why am I a Jacobite?”, “How am I a Jacobite?”, and most importantly, “When am I a Jacobite?”. For example, one of the personae I portray is a late 16^th century captain of a merchant vessel hailing from Scotland. The year of this persona is 15 88 and this Captain and crew being largely staunch Catholic supporters of Mary, Queen of Scots have decided to add their aid to the Spanish Armada sailing against Queen Elizabeth. They are Stewart (Stuart) supporters.

This self same persona hails from the lowlands, specifically the Border Revier area. James is not even yet King. Yet this persona can be seen as an early form of Jacobite and quashes the overly romantic notion that all Jacobites are 18^th century Scottish Highlanders that simply srung up from the land of “Tartanalia” and they all hate the sasanach English. It’s simply not that easy.

[Liam McMac]

It is this simple.... people all over Europe had their individual reasons for being Jacobites. The reason MY PERSONA has chosen to be a Jacobite is simply because of the Anglish tyranny his family has experienced in the past. He feels Scotland has never had a chance at real freedom, and his father fought (and died) in the uprising of 1715 so... maybe his reasoning is less political than it is personal.

Honestly this is way more in depth than I ever wanted to get into this conversation... I have read a few writings on Jacobitism and I'm not debating the history of it... I was simply speaking in the first-person-persona.

No ill intentions toward any currently living Anglish Dogs

[Capn' Mac]

It is this simple.... people all over Europe had their individual reasons for being Jacobites. The reason MY PERSONA has chosen to be a Jacobite is simply because of the Anglish tyranny his family has experienced in the past. He feels Scotland has never had a chance at real freedom, and his father fought (and died) in the uprising of 1715 so... maybe his reasoning is less political than it is personal.

Honestly this is way more in depth than I ever wanted to get into this conversation... I have read a few writings on Jacobitism and I'm not debating the history of it... I was simply speaking in the first-person-persona.

No ill intentions toward any currently living Anglish Dogs

And there aint nuthin wrong with that Liam.

I think we're just trying to spread the word about the history out there. I know that's all I'm doin. Fighting against the hordes of Tartan-o-philes that have seen "Highlander" and "PoTC" one to many times and can't be bothered to crack a book.

Just keep doin what yer doin.

[Fox]

Honestly this is way more in depth than I ever wanted to get into this conversation... I have read a few writings on Jacobitism and I'm not debating the history of it... I was simply speaking in the first-person-persona.

Ah, but this is Twill...mwahahaha. Innocent comments get massacred here in the pursuit of history every day.

No ill intentions toward any currently living Anglish Dogs

None taken, you skirt wearing, intestine eating savage.

Bear in mind (and this is a general warning) Phillip Gosse was one of the most credulous, romantic, and possibly evidence fudging writers of pirate 'history' ever to have been taken seriously. Frank Sherry's views have been extensively argued with (but then, haven't everyone's?)

Piracy was often truly a better solution or at the very least the lesser of all evils to be endured.

Very possibly, but then why didn't everyone turn to piracy? - or is that best left for another thread?

...overly romantic notion that all Jacobites are 18th century Scottish Highlanders that simply srung up from the land of “Tartanalia” and they all hate the sasanach English

Absolutely. In terms of numbers, during the GAoP at least, there were probably more Jacobites who'd consider themselves English than there were Scottish, and, as noted previously, Jacobitism never had anything whatsoever to do with Scottish nationalism.

In England preparations were made for armed rebellions, but were betrayed to the government before they could be put into action. If Ormonde's planned rising in the West Country in 1715 hadn't been found out before it began then it's doubtful we'd even associated Jacobitism with Scotland now, let alone Scottish nationalism. With general feeling for the JAcobite cause running so high during the GAoP it would be ridiculous to suppose that Jacobitism was not felt on pirate ships. Whether, of course, that implies any kind of unified support for the Jacobite cause is another question.

[Daniel]

Absolutely. In terms of numbers, during the GAoP at least, there were probably more Jacobites who'd consider themselves English than there were Scottish, and, as noted previously, Jacobitism never had anything whatsoever to do with Scottish nationalism.

In England preparations were made for armed rebellions, but were betrayed to the government before they could be put into action. If Ormonde's planned rising in the West Country in 1715 hadn't been found out before it began then it's doubtful we'd even associated Jacobitism with Scotland now, let alone Scottish nationalism.

Well, surely the 1745 rebellion would associate Jacobitism with Scotland no matter what (unless Ormonde had actually succeeded in planting James on the throne, which seems improbable). It was the only one of the risings that came anywhere near succeeding, and nearly all of its success was in Scotland; Bonnie Prince Charlie got almost no support when he marched into England. And of course Cumberland stamping out the Jacobite clans after Culloden was also bound to connect the suppression of Jacobitism with the subjection of Scotland, even though Whig clans like the Campbells were enthusiastically helping Cumberland.

And Killiecrankie was surely the most significant victory that the Jacobites ever won, with their Highland backers. That alone would strongly associate Scotland with Jacobitism.

It is true, though, that we tend to overlook the anti-Jacobite clans like the Campbells, and overlook how a clan-ridden society can't be nationalist in the way we think of it today.

[Mission]

Honestly this is way more in depth than I ever wanted to get into this conversation... I have read a few writings on Jacobitism and I'm not debating the history of it... I was simply speaking in the first-person-persona.

Ah, but this is Twill...mwahahaha. Innocent comments get massacred here in the pursuit of history every day.

And debated and considered, and debated and argued, and debated and misconstrued until we find something more interesting to nitpick. It's like being in a period coffee house; lots of discussion, perhaps leading to the publishing of pamphlets for and against and little real action.

With general feeling for the JAcobite cause running so high during the GAoP it would be ridiculous to suppose that Jacobitism was not felt on pirate ships. Whether, of course, that implies any kind of unified support for the Jacobite cause is another question.

Lest we forget, the original question was "Do you guys think most pirates followed Jacobite politics during the golden age and used this to back their activities?" (Seriously, go back and check.) I think pirates may have been interested in them and may even have adopted what suited them, but I have doubts that there was a concerted effort by pirates to make this a driving force behind their activities. Sure, some probably took it very seriously, but the question seems to ask (to me) if there was a concerted effort by pirates as a group to use this in some way to drive their activities.

As we've debated and considered, and debated and argued, and debated and misconstrued, most pirates were probably driven more by immediate profit motives than altruistic values of any form. At the bottom of it, a true pirate is really just a thief. Someone today caught stealing expensive drugs from a pharmacy could say it's a reaction to the high cost of drugs or the lack of effective governmental drug programs or Obamacare or whatever other current event that has the public interest. It might even be true in some isolated cases of small thefts, but if they're stealing a whole lot of drugs and have a concerted plan to do so, it's more likely just a way to make some quick cash. The reason given for this when caught is probably window dressing.

[Fox]

Odd, I thought I had posted the first response to the question, but now I look, it's not there. I must have typed it out then forgotten to press 'post'. D'oh.

What I typed out was to the effect that Jacobitism was quite widely exhibited by pirates between 1715-1725, but that since Jacobitism was the most popular form of political dissent at that time the fact is hardly surprising. However, no pirate that I'm aware of ever used Jacobitism as a justification in court, for example.

Well, surely the 1745 rebellion would associate Jacobitism with Scotland no matter what (unless Ormonde had actually succeeded in planting James on the throne, which seems improbable). It was the only one of the risings that came anywhere near succeeding,

That's a thorny question which really dips into the realms of 'what if' history. Militarily the '45 was the most spectuacular, certainly, but one of the main reasons it ultimately failed was a lack of popular support. On the other hand it has been extensively and persuasively argued that between the accession of George I and the failure of the Atterbury plot (1714-1723) popular Jacobitism was at its peak. However militarily successful the '45 had been, it is unlikely that it could ever have brought about a Stuart restoration. On the other hand, had the English part of the plot not been betrayed before it kicked off the '15 rebellion had, perhaps, a very real chance of success. Ultimately though, in real terms, both rebellions were doomed before they started.

[Captain McCool]

Egads... The sheer volume of information here is overwhelming. Hell, I can hardly follow today's politics, let alone the politics of 300 years ago. I actually know very little about Jacobitism in the grand scheme of things, and yet my own persona is something of a Jacobite himself. A disgruntled, resigned, "Mal Reynolds" style Jacobite, but a Jacobite nonetheless.

It is this simple.... people all over Europe had their individual reasons for being Jacobites. The reason MY PERSONA has chosen to be a Jacobite is simply because of the Anglish tyranny his family has experienced in the past. He feels Scotland has never had a chance at real freedom, and his father fought (and died) in the uprising of 1715 so... maybe his reasoning is less political than it is personal.

This is rather similar to my own story, actually. Only in regards to Ireland rather than Scotland.

So in the interest of learning more about the movement, and the political sentiments of the time, would any of you care to suggest some reading material? I'm most interested in the latter part of the Williamite Wars, Ireland's involvement in the Jacobite movement, and the effects on that nation and its people as they moved into the 18th Century. However, other world history regarding Jacobitism and its effects on the global landscape during the GaoP would also be welcome.

[Tartan Jack]

you skirt wearing, intestine eating savage.

You rang?

Actually and seriously, this is a question I asked Foxe many moons ago on the Ye Pirate Brethren forum (may have been through PMs). He suggested I read Colin Woodward's "Republic of Pirates" book, as it was the one that most discussed Jacobitism and pirates. If I recall correctly, Foxe hadn't thought too much about it before. If that was correct then, it certainly isn't now.

He sent me a wonderful article on the subject, written by him (should I have said that?). Based on it and what I've seen in looking at period stuff, it was certainly "in the air." Things we don't even thing twice about now were "in your face" to them.

For example, take the infamous "Queen Anne's Revenge." The 17-teens pirates had largely been privateers in "Queen Anne's War" and were basically "dumped" in Jamaica and made unemployed and shipless at the time of the treaty. Queen Anne herself died, with a HUGE swirl of debate on the succession around. There was fear of a "British" (a loaded term, them even more than now) war of succession (Queen Anne's War is AKA The War of Spanish Succession). They managed to avoid all-out warfare by the coming of Jorge the German to be "King George," while having MUCH bitterness in the process. How much? Think the 2000 election and amplify it more. Now, if someone had become a pirate, deliberately humiliating ships from certain ports and named his ship either "Clinton's Revenge" or "Al Gore's Revenge" . . . wouldn't that seem a bit politically pointed and making a statement?

Now, the Jacobite Rebellions have been greatly colored and romanticized through time. In Scotland, the Romantic writers of the early 1800s added the nationalistic element to the 1715 and esp. the 1745. Now, the question would be WOULD the Highlanders have thought they were fighting for a Scottish king who would "make things right again" in the land? Based on contemporary evidence (18th C), I'd say certainly. A number of clan leaders and military leaders abandoned both the old and young pretenders camps (figuratively in most cases, literally in the '45) after actually hearing the men themselves. They (those specific Scots) realized they had put the wrong ideas out there upon the wrong men, who wouldn't do what many Scottish supporters expected.

Like the 2008 election, many people thought WIDELY different things and had vastly differing expectations going in and didn't seem to realize the mutual exclusivity of these ideas and that the central political leader had one real stance that may or may not agree w/ the ardent supports (modern politics is intended as a bridge to understanding only, let's not get side tracked on Bush, Obama, and modern politics. Let's stick to late 16th C and early 17th C.)

I'd day that the above posters were right that a number of Scots at the time DID think of it as a Nationalistic movement wherein Scotland would become more independent again or entirely so. Remember, it wasn't but a hundred years since they were merged and Scotland effectively (and illegally, in the minds of Scottish Nationalists) ceased to be a separate kingdom and it's parliament closed until the 1990s. Independence wasn't some distant memory or some pipe-dream. Only when realizing just how much "Bonny Prince Charlie" really wanted the English throne more than the Scot one (and not really that interesting in being a "Scottish" king as much as a Frankified "English" one) did that get all sorts of holes in it. A number simply walked away and were left not really supporting either side.

The big thing to remember is that "Jacobite" meant many different things to different people in the period. Some were mainly upset that a non-"British" monarch was on the throne, esp. one whose English was pretty awful. I'd bet many would be shocked and surprised that that royal house is still there- The House of Hanover changed its name to the House of Windsor, to sound more British and less German.

Jorge's heart was really still in Germany. It took a generation or 2 for the Hanovarian monarchs to become "British" monarchs in heart, as well as reality. Add to that the fact of a perfectly legit successor who was of the senior royal line dating back to King James I of England and VI of Scotland, and one can see the political "divine right of monarchy" ideas at play. Remember, the Stewart line dated back to the steward of Robert the Bruce, whose ????-daughter (forgot the generation) married and fused the line. So, the Stewarts were the Scottish royal line going back DIRECTLY to Robert the Bruce! Traditions like that are hard for "royalist conservatives" to walk away from. There were even period-comparisons of the Stewarts to the line of David in Jerusalem, where The House of David was to reign for ever (I forgot the precise reference, it was a LONG time ago I read it- put it was from the '15 Rebellion period).

So, I'd be VERY careful about trying to put all "Jacobites" into the same box as to their political ideology and even what they honestly expected the Stewart/Stuart would look like and do when they were on the throne. In the absence of real substance, folks filled the void with their own hopes, aspirations, and dreams . . . "When the True King returns from over the water he will . . . " and stuff like that.

There were HUGE numbers of Jacobites in England, plus many in Scotland that did not "fall in" with the battles but had Jacobite sympathies. I'm convinced that IF they had actually won one of the Rebellions, the result would have likely ended up in a civil war as the new Jacobite king would fail to meet the grandiose expectations his supporters had created and convinced themselves was the truth.

Back to point . . .

Where Jacobites among the pirates in the 17-teens . . . absolutely. There is lots of evidence, just look at the ship names, plus more that Foxe knows.

Where they Hanovarian pirates too? Yes.

Something I've wondered . . .

There seems to have been 2 main "camps" or "gangs" of pirates in the 17-teens. There was the group that were originally lead by Jennings and Hornigold in Nassau/New Providence, who were mostly former privateers, many of whom took pardons and retired to honest living the the late 17-teens. And there was the Low/Lowther/???? group that were FAR more vicious violent and more like a modern criminal gang.

By the 1720s, the former had mostly dissipated into dead and pardoned, while the latter cut and murdered their way into infamy and such downright cruelty that the admiralty and society wouldn't any longer tolerate (so they were massacred, to end the GAoP).

What role did the Hanovarian/Jacobite politics play in the bonding and break-up of those groups? Was the latter basically "anarchists" in that they liked neither to any extent?

(Sorry I couldn't footnote this, I'm typing off-the-top-of-my-head at midnight, tired, and have to be at work early tomorrow.)

[Fox]

So in the interest of learning more about the movement, and the political sentiments of the time, would any of you care to suggest some reading material? I'm most interested in the latter part of the Williamite Wars, Ireland's involvement in the Jacobite movement, and the effects on that nation and its people as they moved into the 18th Century. However, other world history regarding Jacobitism and its effects on the global landscape during the GaoP would also be welcome.

Can't recommend highly enough Jacobitism and the English people by Paul Monod, Amazon linked above. An absolute must for anyone interested in Jacobitism.

I'd also recommend, for starters, Daniel Szechi's The Jacobites: Britain and Europe and 1715, The Great Jacobite Rebellion; Murray Pittock, Jacobitism (but not at the price Amazon are charging!). Carlo Gebler's The siege of Derry might also be of interest.