Question about pirate/pirate hunting ships circa 1721

[Billy Leech]

Hi,

Can anyone help me out with some info on ships and sailing times in 1721? For a writing project I'm working on, I'm trying to figure out the best choice of ships to give a main character, a pirate turned pirate hunter, and to make sure I get the details right. I had the idea that the ship he uses was a warship he'd captured and commandeered for his own uses a few years back (so it could be something from the late 1710s). Whatever model or nationality it needs to be, it needs to have a balance between firepower and speed, and provoke a sense of "Oh f***, we've gotta go up against THAT?" I know sloops were more commonly used by pirates and navies alike, and pirate engagements with the navy were rare, but it's kind of an important character point that this character could successfully commandeer a more powerful warship. (If I absolutely can't get away with it, I'll give him a sloop, but the more powerful the ship, the better).

So for 1721, what would be the best ship to give this guy that incorporates what I'm going after, and what's a realistic number of tonnage, cannons it could hold, etc.?

This next one's especially important - how fast could this ship sail from Kingston, Jamaica to Bristol, England? (Also, how fast between Kingston and Santo Domingo?)

I know I'm asking for a lot, but if anyone could help me out with this, or direct me to someone who could, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!

[Captain McCool]

Well, the Queen Anne's Revenge was a pretty formidable vessel, so clearly not all pirates necissarily captained sloops.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Captain McCool

[Red Cat Jenny]

There is a British ship of the line "The HMS Edinburgh" built in 1721 one of the first dual gun deck 70 gun ships of the line according to what I have read. It's also a bit if a gaudy ship...so if youre looking for a little flash as well you might consider it.

As for sailing times, you have to consider season and speed etc..

[Red Cat Jenny]

Of course this wouldn't make a very good pirate ship as it couldnt escape into small coves or shallow waters with so deep a draft..a small fast sloop with a good fearless and knowledgesble crew and ample firepower would be a better choice..

[Daniel]

Hi,

Can anyone help me out with some info on ships and sailing times in 1721? For a writing project I'm working on, I'm trying to figure out the best choice of ships to give a main character, a pirate turned pirate hunter, and to make sure I get the details right. I had the idea that the ship he uses was a warship he'd captured and commandeered for his own uses a few years back (so it could be something from the late 1710s). Whatever model or nationality it needs to be, it needs to have a balance between firepower and speed, and provoke a sense of "Oh f***, we've gotta go up against THAT?" I know sloops were more commonly used by pirates and navies alike, and pirate engagements with the navy were rare, but it's kind of an important character point that this character could successfully commandeer a more powerful warship. (If I absolutely can't get away with it, I'll give him a sloop, but the more powerful the ship, the better).

So for 1721, what would be the best ship to give this guy that incorporates what I'm going after, and what's a realistic number of tonnage, cannons it could hold, etc.?

This next one's especially important - how fast could this ship sail from Kingston, Jamaica to Bristol, England? (Also, how fast between Kingston and Santo Domingo?)

I know I'm asking for a lot, but if anyone could help me out with this, or direct me to someone who could, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!

Well, let's look at some historical pirate hunters' vessels.

Ben Hornigold captained the Ranger sloop, reportedly of 30 guns (a huge armament for a sloop). This was not a captured warship. Hornigold ran down several prizes, possibly including some pirates, while in this sloop (I'm not really sure if Hornigold was still commanding the Ranger when he went to work for Rogers).

Chaloner Ogle captained the HMS Swallow, a nasty 4th-rate ship of the line with 50 guns (22 18-pounders, 22 9-pounders, and 6 6-pounders), 711 tons burden. I certainly would not want to fight against such a vessel. She wasn't really that fast, though; without some msitaken ID and drunkenness by Roberts' and Skyrm's men, she might not have caught them. I have never heard of any such ship being captured by pirates; but with the aid of surprise, treachery, or mutiny, I imagine it could be done.

William Rhett took on Stede Bonnet with two tiny little sloops, the Henry and the Sea Nymph, each with only eight guns. Rhett's main advantage was that he outnumbered Bonnet three to one, with 70 men on one sloop and 60 on the other. These were civilian sloops, not warships, pressed into service for the occasion.

HMS Scarborough was one of the largest warships that ever tangled with a pirate without beating him (according to Johnson, anyway; Cordingly doubts the story). She was a 32-gun 5th-rate. Blackbeard fought her and got away; whether he could have successfully carried her by boarding is a debatable point.

Jonathan Barnet and Lt. Maynard also used sloops. That's kind of the thing with pirate hunters; if you don't use sloops, it's hard to chase pirates into the shallow waters where they hide. Maynard and Rhett in particular had constant troubles with running aground while hunting their prey; in large warships, they wouldn't have stood a chance of penetrating their targets' lairs.

______

Sailing times: in 1695, the East India Merchant, a full-rigged slave ship, took 84 days to dail from Jamaica to London; she could have made Bristol maybe three to five days sooner.

In 1790, the Rodney another slave ship, sailed from Montego Bay, Jamaica to Liverpool in 66 days.

In 1723, the Dove, rig unknown, sailed from Jamaica to London in 70 days.

In 1704, the Martha, rig unknown, sailed from Jamaica to England in 110 days. This is so long that I might guess they stopped in the North American colonies on the way.

In 1709, the Joseph Gally, rig unknown (note that a "galley" in the usage of the time usually meant a flush-decked build, not necessarily an oar-powered vessel), sailed from Kingston to London in 121 days, again probably stopping in the colonies on the way.

________________

Going from Kingston to Santo Domingo is tricky because the trade winds are dead foul. In 1504, Diego Mendez took 46 days to sail a ship from Jamaica to Santo Domingo. A sloop, able to point higher into the wind, could probably have done it much faster.

[Billy Leech]

Hrmmm...well, looks like he's going to be sailing in a sloop, unless he plays the "make the target come to him" game.

Just for one last shot, what about a British third class ship of the line? I've heard those had a pretty good balance between speed and firepower. Would those have been in use for a while by 1721?

I appreciate everyone's help on this. Thanks!

Edited March 9, 2010 by Billy Leech

[Mission]

There's nothing earth-shatteringly new in it, but I thought the book The Sea Rover's Practice by Benerson Little had a pretty well organized listing of ships, weapons and tactics from period. (Once you get past the first few chapters, which I thought were a little bombastic.)

It won't necessarily give you the dates of ship types in a concise, ordered fashion - which may not be useful anyhow in that ships were kept in service for as long as they could keep them going. Nor will it tell you the time from place to place. Although, to be quite honest, times seem to have varied widely based on prevailing winds, currents, storms and such so that you probably couldn't precisely pin such a thing down anyhow. On point, in the book I am reading just now, The Travels and Controversies of Friar Domingo Navarrete, 1618-1686, the good friar explains that "No Voyage upon Sea, even a short one, can be foretold and it is a folly to try to set days to it." (Navarrete, p. 103). However, Little's book will give you a nice round-up of specific and well-documented background information that will serve you well if you want accurate details of sailing and sea warfare from the Golden Age of Piracy.

[MarkG]

Well, the Queen Anne's Revenge was a pretty formidable vessel, so clearly not all pirates necissarily captained sloops.

It was too big so Blackbeard ran it aground and abandoned it along with a good part of his crew (at least that's one theory). Regardless, he was on a much smaller sloop when he was killed.

There were only a few pirate ships this big. The majority of pirates used smaller ships. I've seen a number of sources say that the sloop was the preferred type of ship. They were fast an maneuverable. Larger ships were often slower and needed larger crews which meant that they had to capture larger prizes.

Mark

[Captain McCool]

Fair enough. But a nice, medium sized brig seems reasonable. Plus it could pack a little more wollup than a sloop. Or there's always a light frigate of some sort. Something light, but heavily armed.

[Billy Leech]

Hmmm...a light frigate sound like a workable alternative to a sloop. How fast and maneuverable were they, and how fast could they travel the distances mentioned in the initial posts?

(Also, how light of a frigate are we talking about? Based on this link - http://piratemaster.wetpaint.com/page/Types+of+Ships - assuming it's accurate, which of these are we talking about? (I'd been considering a fourth rate, but a sixth rate sounds more reasonable for a pirate or pirate hunter to use). What kind of tonnage are we talking about for a 30 gun frigate?

What's the general consensus on the best choice between a light frigate and a sloop?

Once again, thanks for the help!

[Bos'n Cross]

i still vote the sloop....a frigate would be square sailed, which would take alot more people to man....as well as the fact that fore-n-aft rigged vessels( like sloops and schooners) are easier to man, maneuver, and sail ........... if your hunting pyrates...then you at least need to be able to catch up with them....if they are much faster and more maneuverable, then they might get away more often than not.............as far as iv seen, one of the reasons pyrates didnt scrap with navy vessels very often, was simply because theyd run off......most pyrate ships that were captured seemed only to have been because of the crew being surprized in a drunken stupor (roberts's crew, jack rackham).......

[Dorian Lasseter]

Some ships to consider...

A Sloop-of-War - this is actually a two and some times three masted ship... small enough to have good speed and maneuverability, but big enough to carry good armament.

A Brig-Sloop - Looks kind of like a schooner, again two masts with fore and aft rig, plus square sails. Very much like the above Sloop-of-War...

Google both types and see what you think.

[Daniel]

You have to remember that the word "frigate" changed meaning completely during the 18th century. At the beginning of the 18th century, "frigate" was a simply a style of build, with raised foc'sle and afterdecks, as opposed to the more flush-decked "galley-built" type of ship. Civilian ships could be called frigates, like Culliford's Mocha Frigate.

By the Napoleonic era, "frigate" referred specifically to 4th-rate and 5th-rate naval ships, no matter their style of build, that were too small to stand in the line of battle, and thus were used as convoy escorts, commerce raiders, messengers, reconnaisance, and VIP transports. 6th-rates were called sloops-of-war, as Dorian mentioned, even though 6th-rates were usually ship-rigged, not sloop-rigged. Not only the terminology had changed, but also the usage of the ships: in 1721, 4th-rates of 50 guns, like the Swallow, still stood in the line of battle, but around the time of the Seven Years' War (1756-63), they were taken out of the line and assigned to the roles we would now call "frigate" duty.

[Billy Leech]

Well, I've looked into all the ships that have been mentioned, including the sloop of war and the brig sloop. I can certainly see the logic of using a sloop and its advantages over the light frigate.

Nevertheless, because of the needs of the character, in terms of his personality and the tactics he favors, I think I'm probably going to go with the light frigate, sporting 30-32 guns. I'll definitely be incorporating what I've learned on this thread into the plot of the story and the tactics used, so please don't consider any of your efforts wasted or your advice ignored. I'd explain more in terms of the plot and the character about why I made this choice over the sloop, but I want to keep plot details secure.

I'll also track down the book that was mentioned earlier, The Sea Rover's Practice, for more detail on ship dimensions and travel speed. When would be the best times of year for a frigate (or any other ship) to travel from Kingston to Santo Domingo, and then to Bristol?

Thanks again for all the help!

Edited March 11, 2010 by Billy Leech

[Captain McCool]

The other thing is that, if you're going with a larger ship, I understand that many folks converted them to barques, since having only a lateen or gaff sail on the mizzen mast apparently made them easier to handle. Dunno why, as I have no actual sailing experience, but that's what I've read.

[Mission]

I'll also track down the book that was mentioned earlier, The Sea Rover's Practice, for more detail on ship dimensions and travel speed. When would be the best times of year for a frigate (or any other ship) to travel from Kingston to Santo Domingo, and then to Bristol?

Thanks again for all the help!

Billy, that book will give you neither dimensions nor speed. It will give you ideas on pirate tactics, which vessels pirates favored and why they favored them.

[Fox]

In 1704, the Martha, rig unknown, sailed from Jamaica to England in 110 days. This is so long that I might guess they stopped in the North American colonies on the way.

In 1709, the Joseph Gally, rig unknown (note that a "galley" in the usage of the time usually meant a flush-decked build, not necessarily an oar-powered vessel), sailed from Kingston to London in 121 days, again probably stopping in the colonies on the way.

Or they ran foul of easterlies blowing down the English Channel.

On another forum, FWIW, we started building a database of pirate ships from the GAoP which came close to blowing open the myth that pirates preferred sloops.

[Billy Leech]

I'll also track down the book that was mentioned earlier, The Sea Rover's Practice, for more detail on ship dimensions and travel speed. When would be the best times of year for a frigate (or any other ship) to travel from Kingston to Santo Domingo, and then to Bristol?

Thanks again for all the help!

Billy, that book will give you neither dimensions nor speed. It will give you ideas on pirate tactics, which vessels pirates favored and why they favored them.

That'll come in handy as well.

In terms of dimensions, tonnage, and speed, what would be appropriate for a light frigate with 30 guns? Any recommendations for a resource on this?

[Daniel]

In 1704, the Martha, rig unknown, sailed from Jamaica to England in 110 days. This is so long that I might guess they stopped in the North American colonies on the way.

In 1709, the Joseph Gally, rig unknown (note that a "galley" in the usage of the time usually meant a flush-decked build, not necessarily an oar-powered vessel), sailed from Kingston to London in 121 days, again probably stopping in the colonies on the way.

Or they ran foul of easterlies blowing down the English Channel.

Eh? I thought westerlies were overwhelmingly dominant in the Channel. Wasn't that why the Spanish Armada had to sail around Scotland and Ireland instead of going back the way it came?

[Daniel]

On another forum, FWIW, we started building a database of pirate ships from the GAoP which came close to blowing open the myth that pirates preferred sloops.

Cordingly counted up the pirate attacks in Johnson and the Public Record Office, and concluded that the sloop was most used, but there seems to have been a misprint in his results. He says,

55 percent of the attacks were made by pirates in sloops, 45 percent were carried out in ships, 10 percent in brigs or brigantines, 5 percent in schooners, 3 percent in open boats, and 2 percent in snows.

Cordingly, David, Under the Black Flag: The Romance and Reality of Life Among the Pirates, New York: Random House, 1995, pp. 161-62.

Since these numbers add up to the puzzling figure of 120 percent, there is presumably a misprint in the percentage of sloops, the percentage of ships, or both. Was this ever corrected in a later edition of Cordingly?

[Mission]

Cordingly counted up the pirate attacks in Johnson and the Public Record Office, and concluded that the sloop was most used, but there seems to have been a misprint in his results. He says,

55 percent of the attacks were made by pirates in sloops, 45 percent were carried out in ships, 10 percent in brigs or brigantines, 5 percent in schooners, 3 percent in open boats, and 2 percent in snows.

Cordingly, David, Under the Black Flag: The Romance and Reality of Life Among the Pirates, New York: Random House, 1995, pp. 161-62.

Since these numbers add up to the puzzling figure of 120 percent, there is presumably a misprint in the percentage of sloops, the percentage of ships, or both. Was this ever corrected in a later edition of Cordingly?

I am not all that knowledgeable about sailing vessels, but doesn't the term "ship" cover a wide variety of vessels? Isn't any vessel with three masts considered a ship? If so, there might be an overlap (schooners, snows and sloops could have 3 masts, right?) which may account for the figures, although it makes the results somewhat less clear.

[Daniel]

I am not all that knowledgeable about sailing vessels, but doesn't the term "ship" cover a wide variety of vessels? Isn't any vessel with three masts considered a ship? If so, there might be an overlap (schooners, snows and sloops could have 3 masts, right?) which may account for the figures, although it makes the results somewhat less clear.

No, snows and schooners have only two masts. Sloops usually have one mast, and although I've heard of sloops with two masts, I've never heard of one with three. Overlap, if it existed at all, would be negligible.

Of course, the word "ship" is often used in a more general sense for any large sailing vessel with multiple decks, but in that sense 97% of the vessels would be ships, not 45%.

[Fox]

No correction of the puzzling percentage problem has been made in my 2007 edition of UTBF, but Cordingly's analysis is flawed in any case if he's counted the number of attacks rather than the number of ships. In a hypothetical case, one sloop making ten attacks would appear more common than two ships making two attacks each.

Westerlies are more usual in the Channel at certain times of year, but not overwhelmingly so. It is currently blowing from the East as I type.

[Bos'n Cross]

I am not all that knowledgeable about sailing vessels, but doesn't the term "ship" cover a wide variety of vessels? Isn't any vessel with three masts considered a ship? If so, there might be an overlap (schooners, snows and sloops could have 3 masts, right?) which may account for the figures, although it makes the results somewhat less clear.

No, snows and schooners have only two masts. Sloops usually have one mast, and although I've heard of sloops with two masts, I've never heard of one with three. Overlap, if it existed at all, would be negligible.

Of course, the word "ship" is often used in a more general sense for any large sailing vessel with multiple decks, but in that sense 97% of the vessels would be ships, not 45%.

as slight side note about schooners( i agree about snows though) schooners can have as many mast as you want as long as the forward mast (formast) is shorter than or the same height as the one behind it (mainmast), and they tend to be fore and aft rigged......just a little aside, for i work on a 3 masted schooner

[Mission]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_%28ship%29

They show a three masted snow on wiki. Maybe it's wrong, but that's what they show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schooners

Here they show a seven-masted schooner!

But, as I noted, I don't know ships and so I must rely on the research of others.