Cartridge Boxes?

[Hawkyns]

Referencing the picture of the Royal Marine posted by Grymm in the uniform colours thread.

Has anyone seen an original of the cartridge box? Specifically, does it have a wooden block insert as used by the mid 18th c, or is it an open box similar to the Whydah and Phipps boxes?

Hawkyns

[michaelsbagley]

Referencing the picture of the Royal Marine posted by Grymm in the uniform colours thread.

Has anyone seen an original of the cartridge box? Specifically, does it have a wooden block insert as used by the mid 18th c, or is it an open box similar to the Whydah and Phipps boxes?

Hawkyns

To be honest Hawkyns, the only other place I have seen a shot container of that sort is from an "Osprey Military" book, and that drawing had it looking more like a shot bag/pouch than a box. I think some of the Blenheim tapestries have images of Grenadiers carrying a bag/pouch similar (going from memory here, so take that with a grain of salt).

In fact the only image I have seen for the GAoP that contains a shot container that uses something like the drilled loading boxes (popular in F&IW and Rev-War) is a French drawing of a Marine (can't remember if that was early 18th century or very late 17th). My guess based on the fairly limited amount of available information is that the English were rather late in switching to the drilled blocks (by the late 1720s or more likely 1730s would be my guess).

To be honest, those sketches are the first images of GAoP English Marines (not from Osprey books) that I have seen... And I am very tempted to buy the cited book to see what sources the artist used to come to the conclusions that spawned those pieces of art. I've done a fair bit of searching for primary sources on marines, and not had any luck... And I have yet to see any of the secondary or tertiary sources that have provided enough references to give me any sort of confidence in their historic validity.

That would be my rather cynical seeming take on the matter.

[Hawkyns]

I have seen the type of box before, with the tabs coming from the end instead of the back. No indication of the interior, though. So little of that period remains and for some reason the documentation is just abysmal.

Hawkyns

[Grymm]

Oooh, there's a good few Queen Anne period ones hanging on the wall at work, and the conservators have been cleaning them..............hmmmmm I wonder if I can get a peek and will they let me play with the pistols?

[Silver]

take a look and then pictures. lots of them!

[Grymm]

Right had a quick look today after sorting out the 'red tape' the boxes are allegedly from King William's time(although some are badged with Billy's cypher some with Annes), they are belt/belly boxes and they do have wooden inserts (12hole beech and elm being the majority. The conservators spent 10mins whinging to me about the woodworm) I haven't been able to take a block out to see if they are stamped or dated. Also in the display are bandoliers but they are a different pattern to Civil War ones (ours not yours) white straps and black bottles, I'll try to get pics of them too if you like but no promises. I'm waiting on permission to take photos, and I wouldn't hold y'breath, but some apparently photos were taken when they were first taken down, I'll see about getting hold of copies in case plan A goes tits up.

[Hawkyns]

Magic!! Thank you!! A couple more questions. Were they single line of 12 holes or 2 rows of 6? What diameter holes?

Can I ask where you have the luck to work that has these?

Hawkyns

[michaelsbagley]

Right had a quick look today after sorting out the 'red tape' the boxes are allegedly from King William's time(although some are badged with Billy's cypher some with Annes), they are belt/belly boxes and they do have wooden inserts (12hole beech and elm being the majority. The conservators spent 10mins whinging to me about the woodworm) I haven't been able to take a block out to see if they are stamped or dated. Also in the display are bandoliers but they are a different pattern to Civil War ones (ours not yours) white straps and black bottles, I'll try to get pics of them too if you like but no promises. I'm waiting on permission to take photos, and I wouldn't hold y'breath, but some apparently photos were taken when they were first taken down, I'll see about getting hold of copies in case plan A goes tits up.

That is really awesome information... And has now caused me to greatly rethink many of the information I had suspected with regards to shot boxes of the period.

Might I ask what museum you work at? I think you have opened my eyes to a whole new scope of sources I need to get information from and read on!

[Guest]

I'm wonderin' about th' development from a buncha cartradges hangin' offa belt to a cratridge box...

(OK.. I will stop wit... with the bad spelling)

Anyway... what is the development from shot ... cartadge... OK hanging wooden containers holding a pre-measured amount of powder... to a pre rolled paper container/cartridge holding the ball and the powder to fire a gun... (off track, but in some book... I saw a picture of the cast ball with the sprew still attached , and used to tie the cartridge onto....)

From what I can figgure... someone discovered that you could wrap everything in paper, and it worked even quicker....

NOW... how do you hold the pre-rolled cartridges in place?

A wood block with a bunch drilled holes would work, but all of the early cartridge boxed I can find on-line show them more like a leather covered wooden box....(the Whyda and Deerfield (I think))

I know it works.... But when did the drilled separators come in...?

Is that Rev. War ?

So the question is... when did the interior separations of a Cartridge Box go from just a wooden container,... to a wooden, buncha holes drilled into it to hold the cartridges?

.

[Red John]

Probably about the time someone realized that it's really, really hard to keep count of how many you had left when they are all rolling around in a pile in the bottom of yer box . . . and maybe for those that didn't like fumbling with a pile and wanted an easy grab . . . and maybe for the leadership types that didn't like the "ill disciplined" look of a pile in a box . . . and maybe for the same leadership types who wanted to ensure "ammunition discipline" and accountability for all rounds issued . . . and, probably very likely, for those in a "less kinetic" environment . . . maybe when the sergeant decided he needed to give orders to flip the cartridges over every so often to ensure the salt petre didn't all stick to one end - or one side if laying in the bottom of a box - like you had to do with the barrels of powder back then . . . to make sure it stil went 'bang' when it was supposed to . . . or maybe some combination of some or all the above . . .

Which is probably about mid to late 1600s for the French, about the same for the Spanish, and the English, who relied on ships not fortresses, a wee bit later . . .

. . . me, all I can think of is "my God, I've only got ten rounds???" . . . now let me count the ten dudes that are going down ... and keep a look out for number 11 . . .

Just me, no cites in hand to offer up . . . but I'll keep checking . . .

Yours, aye-