Garb Question / Opinions

[j8ksdad]

Isn't that just a tall, two button collar?

Any one know wot this thing around the color of the shirt is called and whare can I get one?

shirt under vest colar thingie

[Bos'n Cross]

J8ksdad is correct...that is simply a two button collar.......and on a side note..if anyone has another reference to double breasted coats before 1730 please post...iv just been through a hundred or so paintings and sketches and come up ONLY with the rogers prints....lol

[Quartermaster James]

Proof like this - in fact both Woodes Rodgers drawings - of sailors wearing double breasted jackets during the early 1700s really changes the accepted standards.

Standards of clothing, or standards of documentation?

The Woodes Rogers illustration depicts an event of 1710, but from when does the illustration date?

Any one know wot this thing around the color of the shirt is called and whare can I get one?

shirt under vest colar thingie

I too agree with j8ksdad that the picture shows a high collar, but will also add that what I think you seek is called a neck stock.

Oh! And I just have to use this link, nothing personal, just my newest toy: http://tinyurl.com/yamecoe

[Capt. Sterling]

Has anyone ever seen them in other illustrations, or paintings? Iv only seen them so far in mid 18th century and later paintings...BBUUTTT i suppose they had to be based on something earlier.......id like another picture to go by, before making one.........*goes off to look at dutch paintings*...i shall find more!

I believe the second Rogers print with him supposedly in the center in frock coat, which also shows what looks like a double breasted coat on one of the sailors is from the period...as I believe it was used to discuss a case of fringed waistcoats in an earlier Twill thread, between Kass, and Gof...there was also some discussion as to what the women actually were wearing about their necks...

Edited January 28, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

Right then so much for the fringe debate... I have found a copy of the second Rogers print with the ladies at the Hulton Archive which gives the following info:

Title:

Pirate Rogers

Caption: Circa 1710, The pirate Captain Woodes-Rogers and his men stealing jewels from a group of women in the neighbourhood of Guiaquil. (Photo by Hulton Archive/Getty Images)

Date created: 02 Jan 1754

Editorial image #: 51241197

Restrictions: Contact your local office for all commercial or promotional uses.

License type: Rights-managed

Photographer:

Hulton Archive/Handout

Collection:

Hulton Archive

Credit: Getty Images

Source: Hulton Archive

Release information: Not released. More information

[Capt. Sterling]

So now the second picture of the California landing is questionable for our time frame...unless we run across some primary source discussing the clothing itself..

[MarkG]

The thread got sidetracked on slops but stocking caps were also mentioned. I'd like to point out that stocking caps on sailors go back hundreds of years. The owner of the Santa Maria was painted wearing one. He drew the first map of Columbus's discoveries and put stocking caps on the winds. They go forward all the way to modern watch caps.

Mark

[Quartermaster James]

The thread got sidetracked on slops but stocking caps were also mentioned. I'd like to point out that stocking caps on sailors go back hundreds of years. The owner of the Santa Maria was painted wearing one. He drew the first map of Columbus's discoveries and put stocking caps on the winds. They go forward all the way to modern watch caps.

Mark

Aye! And stocking caps is a sidetrack from striped stocking caps.

I hesitated to venture into these grounds for they are highly contested, but generally speaking, horizontally striped caps (as I believe the referred to "artistic character" depiction refers) would not be common. Solid colour Monmouth caps? Aye! Linen caps (not stocking) with stripes vertical? Aye! Long voyageurs caps; well, who are you and how did you come by that hat? (aka: Aye! Aye! Mr. Smee!)

Addendum: I am yet to see anything in the Woodes Roggers illustrations that I would liken to the "tattered" clothes of a cast-away. Some of the things I think other people are taking as ragged edges I am yet to be convinced are more than the artistic rendering of folds in cloth. Certainly, nothing but the painting shows anything like the stereotypical tattered rags. Even then, that's one (and the youngest?) of eight adults depicted that has clothes in any need of repair. Hardly common.

[Fox]

Thanks to Sterling for bringing this thread to my attention. Some thoughts:

The two pictures of Rogers' men are indeed from a later edition of his book, so on the question of double breasted coats are 'inadmissable evidence', but on the question of quality of clothing might still be relevant.

While we're discussing the dates of pictures, when was that picture of de la Cosa executed? The cartouche in the bottom seems to suggest that it's a very modern rendition, but perhaps of an older painting.

On stocking caps - although they turn up in various time-frames and cultures over the centuries, I've not seen (to my recollection) an example from the GAoP. And I've certainly not seen a striped one of the kind being discussed from the correct period. Without evidence of continuity it would be unwise to assume that Anglo-American seamen from 1690-1730 wore soemthing just because Spaniards did two centuries earlier.

Ned Ward wrote something along the lines of 'every sailor has a wife, but of all men he's got the least need for one, for a man can't be a sailor unless he can be his own seamstress or laundress' (I can't be bothered to find the exact quotation) in his Wooden World Dissected, 1707.

It is entirely fallacious to assume that people had a limited number of garments. Probate inventories for GAoP sailors often list surprisingly large numbers of garments, even those taken at sea.

Having said that, the Admiralty operated the slop-clothing system because it was a frequent complaint that sailors' clothes were falling to pieces. Men at sea have no other recourse to new clothes, and there's a limit to how much repair work can be done to working garments.

Make of all this what you will.

[Capt. Sterling]

Thanks to Sterling for bringing this thread to my attention. Some thoughts:

It is entirely fallacious to assume that people had a limited number of garments. Probate inventories for GAoP sailors often list surprisingly large numbers of garments, even those taken at sea.

Thanks for this as well, have had it beaten into my brain that "even the King and high ranking nobility only owned a few garments for our time frame"

[MarkG]

Thanks to Sterling for bringing this thread to my attention. Some thoughts:

The two pictures of Rogers' men are indeed from a later edition of his book, so on the question of double breasted coats are 'inadmissable evidence', but on the question of quality of clothing might still be relevant.

While we're discussing the dates of pictures, when was that picture of de la Cosa executed? The cartouche in the bottom seems to suggest that it's a very modern rendition, but perhaps of an older painting.

On stocking caps - although they turn up in various time-frames and cultures over the centuries, I've not seen (to my recollection) an example from the GAoP. And I've certainly not seen a striped one of the kind being discussed from the correct period. Without evidence of continuity it would be unwise to assume that Anglo-American seamen from 1690-1730 wore soemthing just because Spaniards did two centuries earlier.

Ned Ward wrote something along the lines of 'every sailor has a wife, but of all men he's got the least need for one, for a man can't be a sailor unless he can be his own seamstress or laundress' (I can't be bothered to find the exact quotation) in his Wooden World Dissected, 1707.

It is entirely fallacious to assume that people had a limited number of garments. Probate inventories for GAoP sailors often list surprisingly large numbers of garments, even those taken at sea.

Having said that, the Admiralty operated the slop-clothing system because it was a frequent complaint that sailors' clothes were falling to pieces. Men at sea have no other recourse to new clothes, and there's a limit to how much repair work can be done to working garments.

Make of all this what you will.

The picture is a modern reworking of a painting done from life. It was the first version I could find on-line and the details are all the same.

On tattered clothing, the one exception to the rule that all loot goes into the common pool was clothing. Anyone with worn clothing got first pick from the loot.

Mark

[Fox]

On tattered clothing, the one exception to the rule that all loot goes into the common pool was clothing. Anyone with worn clothing got first pick from the loot.

On Robert's ship certainly, everyone involved in the capture of a vessel was 'called in turn and allowed a shift [of clothes]'. That exact practice was not necessarily universal amongst other pirates, but it would be an odd pirate who had scruples about taking clothing that he needed.* Good point sir.

*sadly, this argument is all too often misused to justify extravagant costume.