Garb Question / Opinions

[Jas. Hook]

What say ye, caricatures or not -

Are striped cloth stocking caps at all accurate or just an artistic character?

Is the ragged bottom slops at all accurate or again just an artistic character of a ragged pirate or castaway?

Jas. Hook

[LadyBrower]

Good questions.

Depends on what you mean by "stocking cap." I'm by no means an expert, but a striped linen workman's cap should be appropriate. There were some elongated knit caps found, but I am not sure if stripes or the very long (think Victorian story book) are accurate.

Slops are a whole argument unto themselves... LOL. I believe there is a whole thread devoted to their authenticity. You might have to dig a bit though, me thinks.

Sorry, I'm not that much help.

[Jack Roberts]

I can't help with the cap but the slops I can add my findings and opinions.

We know in the GAOP they had second and third hand clothing. So sure you can ragged clothing but does that fit with your persona? Like Capt'n Sterling told me, "clothing was new once." I know from experience that I won't "age or distress" my clothes. I'm too hard on them at events. Of this is from a historical perspective.

[Quartermaster James]

You're a seaman, a sailor.

Sewing and mending cloth is part of your skill set.

You'd only have ragged clothes if'n you'd been marooned or the like.

Even then, you'd probably make needle and thread,and mend your clothes.

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm good question about the raggy slops... now I am going to stick my neck out here as I am just coming up with my own ideas on this one

Here is a time frame when folks don't have numerous garments floating about in their possession. Maybe a few good items for the wealthy with fewer items per person as you go down the social ladder. Clothing is being passed down in wills. There are also the second hand shops, at least in England, which are quite the rage..the term aping your betters come into play, were there many "betters" walking about in unkempt garments?...

and there is the "housewife" that dandy little sewing kit that even sailors and soldiers carried off with them to battle... I have no idea about stats regarding how many more folks could handle a needle and thread back then as opposed to nowadays...although, frankly it scares me that even most women today don't seem to be able to hem or repair a missing button... but back then it seems more of both sexes could at least do that.

My question becomes if you had the means, ie. the simple skills and the materials, ie, needle and thread, and the time, would you have allowed yourself to walk around in such a condition...remember these may be the only trousers/breeches you can afford for some time...are you going to keep them in good shape or let them fall apart? If you are concerned about your appearance and trying to ape your betters are you going to walk around looking like a slob?

When studying garments, it seems that many items were worn until you outgrew them, in which case they were often reworked and handed down until they literally were reduced to rags with use and age. Museums often cite when a garment has been reworked in order to make an older style into something more suitable for the current owner (I believe Janet Arnold gives a few examples in her books)..remember the common rule seems to have been labor was cheap, materials were what was costly...so would one let something just go un-repaired if one had the time and ability to fix it? Granted I wouldn't be surprised if there were those as well that truly didn't care about their appearance or just didn't have what it took to make the fixes... tis a good question

Has anyone ever come across any stats or evidence that would support that folks back then were truly more concerned about their appearance then we appear to be now ?

[Jas. Hook]

Thanks! As I rather suspected contrary to the popular character, the seaman, unless in dire straits, prided himself on the maintenance, patching, repairing or fabrication of their kit. That the ragged look is more theatrical or Hollywood except if a person was to assume a particular persona or role.

The cloth stocking cap could be a style of workman's cap, not too exaggerated in length rather like a nightcap. The longish knit cap of the French Coureurs de bois style perhaps regionally made it aboard ship as a substitute for the Marmouth cap.

Thankee for the many replies.

Your servant,

Jas. Hook

[LadyBarbossa]

Tis th' wornderful thing out researchin'... we get t' be our own type of Mythbusters but with attire. And perhaps there is that one saying "Results may vary".

~Lady B

[Guest]

OK... this isn't exactly period, but how many people hem the edge of cut-off blue jeans?

You know... that old pair of jeans with the knees worn out that you want to turn into a pair of shorts...

Come to think of it... how many other people patch their worn out jeans? I can't stand having my knees poke through a worn out pair, so I use the most worn out pair as patches for the other ones... (sewing the patch on the inside, and then trimming the frayed edges, turning them under and sewing that down... kinda the same way you repair a sail...gives them some character, and makes them last twice as long )

But I don't bother with the hem...it only frays a little bit anyway...(and you can trim that off if it bothers you.)

So patching slops so they can be worn longer makes sense, but would they bother with the hem? (they were work clothing, not something worn to a fancy dress ball after all.... )

[Capt. Sterling]

Mr. Hand why do we hem anything? to keep the fabric from unraveling...if it unravels we soon have nothing left... now if the fabric is woven well enough, like some woollens were during the time frame, hemming is not needed because they do not unravel or they wear really well without hemming... so hemming if you want certain fabrics to last longer is necessary...

[michaelsbagley]

Mr. Hand why do we hem anything? to keep the fabric from unraveling...if it unravels we soon have nothing left... now if the fabric is woven well enough, like some woollens were during the time frame, hemming is not needed because they do not unravel or they wear really well without hemming... so hemming if you want certain fabrics to last longer is necessary...

I certainly agree for fabrics such as silks, linens, and cottons. But for wool garments...

I don't think many will dispute the notion that military coats (rank and file, not officers coats) had raw edges. I don't have readily available examples to back this point (and any solid references I do have are likely post period anyways), but I think that is pretty good backer for the raw edge theory for wool items.

Now if we carry onto my favourite three pieces of documentation of clothing for the period...

If one goes through the Gunnister, one will find that some edges were hemmed (on a quick re-read it seems mostly the vertical elements), while many edges were not hemmed (mostly bottom edges).

If one carries onto the Quintfall Hill examples, a quick review by me found that the edges on those garments were not hemmed.

And lastly, the Arnish Moor garments seem to follow similar trends to the Gunnister garments, with the exception that the wool shirt seems to have turned up and hemmed edges.

The Gunnister find

The Quintfall Hill find

Arnish Moor find

Please keep in mind all of my comments were based on a very quick scan/read, I don't have these archaeological reports committed to memory, and I don't have the time to read through more thoroughly right now to make absolute certain my comments are without question.

Edit: If only we had some good reports on canvas clothing to see how it was used in clothing.

[Matty Bottles]

Michael, have you seen that wool that is contracted to original unit specs? I believe it is made under contract to James Kochan and Sean Phillips. It's the stuff that sells for $56 a yard, or something like that. You don't have to worry about that stuff unraveling any more than you have to worry about your hat!

[Capt. Sterling]

Agreed, linens, and silks and indian calicos were hemmed... and woolens were not in most cases...(I have not seen a clear enough picture of woolen bed hangings from the time frame to see if they are hemmed or not), they did not need to be as the weave on the fabrics appear to have been much better than the woolens produced nowadays... all the woolen garments I have seen from the period have had raw edges both bottom and along the length of the fronts, cuffs and pockets... of course now someone will come along with an extant example of one that is hemmed..

The problem being that nowadays, many of the wools folks wish to use are tropical weight, and those just don't seem to hold up ...so the choice would be hemming or showing an unkempt, raggy raw edge which you just don't see on many extant garments..

Edited January 26, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

William Booth has some lovely wool broadcloth that need not be hemmed... my black and silver coat was made with his fabric and that is entirely raw edges except at the neck...which is bound as per the period, which was most likely done due to the constant rubbing at the neck....

[michaelsbagley]

Michael, have you seen that wool that is contracted to original unit specs? I believe it is made under contract to James Kochan and Sean Phillips. It's the stuff that sells for $56 a yard, or something like that. You don't have to worry about that stuff unraveling any more than you have to worry about your hat!

Oh, I've seen it alright... Boy have I seen it. I had contemplated using it for my 2.0 version of my Red Coat uniform... But I felt that while I am a ton more confident in my research than I was when I made my first uniform, there are a couple of details I question enough to not want to spend the hundred of dollars on fabric for it... Yet. However the stuff I did buy for Red Coat 2.0 is good enough quality that I won't need to hem edges (it's just a tad bit lighter weight, but still very good).

In another colonial forum I am on, it was mentioned that the original specs for that fabric are based on some late 18th or early 19th century examples.... But even still, I would be willing to bet good money that while it is based on a later extent documents/examples... It would be the closer to (or even the exact same) as any examples from the GAoP.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

In support of worn out clothes I present to you the following evidence...

1710 Woodes Rodgers' men. Look at the bottom of the slops/trousers on two of the sailors. A bit tattered I say.

A painting by Willem Van Mieris I believe from 1718. THese are common folks and not sailors, but they wear many of the same garments - and man are these on their last leg - or pant leg.

and Woodes once again in his pyratin' days... one of the sailors looks to have tattered trousers.

[Capt. Sterling]

In support of worn out clothes I present to you the following evidence...

1710 Woodes Rodgers' men. Look at the bottom of the slops/trousers on two of the sailors. A bit tattered I say.

Ah...not seen this print as of yet, and more of what looks to be double breasted or at least two rows of buttons down the front of the coats...thanks!

[LadyBarbossa]

A painting by Willem Van Mieris I believe from 1718. THese are common folks and not sailors, but they wear many of the same garments - and man are these on their last leg - or pant leg.

::GASP!!!::: Sorry, t'was the large sewing cabinet that I'm gasping at! I spotted one of those on Craigslist locally. Damnit! If I would have known it was period I would have grabbed it! damnitdamnitdamnit!

Oh, well.

I like this image right well. For many reasons.

~Lady B

[capn'rob]

Aye, this painting by Van Mieirs be a fine one. Upon expanding it I noticed some interesting things. The triptic cabinet of what appears to be a theater audience. I believe this is what Lady B refed to as a sewing cabinet. Behind the people, maybe? On the rack, high on the wall, were other covered pichers like the one on the floor in the foreground next to the bench. It appears this is how Beer was sold and how you kept your mug filled. By the kegs against the wall I'd say this is a Tavern and by the top of the kegs, fish is on the menu. I liked the pipe and 'backy tin. The fact that they are available today in replica is real cool! Beside the worn clothes another sign that times were hard was no shoe buckles.

So much fer th' Tupence o' Dutch, "X" his mark

Edited January 27, 2010 by capn'rob

[theM.A.dDogge]

i find myself personally drawn to the broken pipe on the floor....seems to match most of mine...broken

[Capt. Sterling]

sniggering...

[LadyBarbossa]

A theater audience? Oh, bloody hell! Nay, can't view th' image all too well.

Problem with pipes, Dogge? :)

~Lady B

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

In support of worn out clothes I present to you the following evidence...

1710 Woodes Rodgers' men. Look at the bottom of the slops/trousers on two of the sailors. A bit tattered I say.

Ah...not seen this print as of yet, and more of what looks to be double breasted or at least two rows of buttons down the front of the coats...thanks!

Proof like this - in fact both Woodes Rodgers drawings - of sailors wearing double breasted jackets during the early 1700s really changes the accepted standards.

[Jack Roberts]

Yes it does change our perspective on what was worn but it doesn't seem that common. Or perhaps it is more of a seafaring, naval, thing? At least looking at what I've seen in period illustrations it seems double breasted coats seem less common. But this isn't twill. Crap there I go spinning another topic off track."

Edited January 27, 2010 by Jack Roberts

[Bos'n Cross]

Has anyone ever seen them in other illustrations, or paintings? Iv only seen them so far in mid 18th century and later paintings...BBUUTTT i suppose they had to be based on something earlier.......id like another picture to go by, before making one.........*goes off to look at dutch paintings*...i shall find more!

[oderlesseye]

Any one know wot this thing around the color of the shirt is called and whare can I get one?

shirt under vest colar thingie