Shoulder Seams

[Capt. Sterling]

"As for using period patterns, some are good but a lot of them do not have the neck-back shoulder seam at the proper angle or at the

right height. It must be cut for each person individually.

None of the clothing for women or men should have a shoulder seam on top of the shoulder.

Especially if it is a military coat. No seams to rub with all the gear they carried on their shoulders..Makes sense.

The front continued up and over the shoulders and joined a hand width down. This fitting made that seam

to fall almost on a bias and helped it to give when the arms are raised to fire a weapon."

Also very much would like to disagree about the shoulder seams on the men's coats...illustrations, fashion plates, paintings more often than not show the shoulder seam to be placed if not directly on top of the shoulder, at the most only a small difference tilted toward the back... the original patterns I have worked with also have the seam situated on or extremely close to the top of the shoulder NOT drafted way toward the back of the garment, certainly not a hand's width, as was more common in the later 18th century. If it helps, the time frame many of us, but not all, deal with is approximately 1675-1730,,,

And I have never had a problem firing a weapon with a coat and sleeved waistcoat based on originals with the seam closer to the top as illustrated commonly from the time frame.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

Also here... https://pyracy.com/index.php?showtopic=14057&view=&hl=waistcoat&fromsearch=1

tis a thread on an original waistcoat... if you go to the photo album you can see the seam in one of the photos from the back... tis closer to the top of the shoulder than a hand's width below it

Edited January 20, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Jack Roberts]

Since we are drifting from the original topic, perhaps the Moderators could split and move this discussion over to twill?

I would also respectfully disagree. I've seen and rechecked most of the plates that Sterling has posted and I've seen extant garments that do not have the shoulder seam that far down. Please check this thread 1710 Waistcoat. Clearly the shoulder seam is on top.

[michaelsbagley]

Since we are drifting from the original topic, perhaps the Moderators could split and move this discussion over to twill?

I would also respectfully disagree. I've seen and rechecked most of the plates that Sterling has posted and I've seen extant garments that do not have the shoulder seam that far down. Please check this thread 1710 Waistcoat. Clearly the shoulder seam is on top.

Topic split as requested. I have moved the topic to "Twill" as I feel it is more academic then construction technique or how-to at the moment, but it is kind of dancing on a thin line. If those involved in the discussion feel it should go back to "The Sewing Room", I can do that no problem. Please just give me a shout if you have any feelings one way or another on this.

[Capt. Sterling]

Note left shoulder top...

note no visible dropped shoulder seam

but note here...you can see that it is starting to drop... this buff colored coat is circa 1730s

Edited January 21, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

sorry double post

Edited January 21, 2010 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

Waugh makes it sound, for a more generalized version of the evolution of 18th century coats... that the side seam begins to move toward the back along with the drop in the shoulder seam after the coat has reached its fullest point circa 1740s...although the coat above circa, 1730s shows the shoulder seam already beginning to drop...although not a hand's width as of yet...

The three original patterns in Waugh, circa 1680-1700 do not show an off the shoulder seam, and one is just beginning to show on the 1720s coat...however slightly.

A post has gone off to the V&A to ask about their extant coats. I am also sending one off to the Manchester Galleries and the Fashion museum at Bath...hopefully we shall hear from them soon.

[Jack Roberts]

I just got this reply from the V&A museum.

From what I can see, the first shoulder seam placement seems to be correct. The seam further back is indeed, as you say, more typical of the later 18th century as coats became increasingly closely fitted and tailored to the form beneath.

Best wishes,

Daniel

Daniel Milford-Cottam,

Assistant Curator

Furniture, Textiles & Fashion Department,

Victoria & Albert Museum

Please note that although V&A staff are always pleased to answer enquiries and otherwise provide assistance whenever possible, they cannot accept any legal or other responsibility for any opinion expressed.

It seems to me that as you move further into the century the shoulder seams start to drop. Yet another way to double check date and to help date period illustrations.

[Captain McCool]

Note left shoulder top...

note no visible dropped shoulder seam

but note here...you can see that it is starting to drop... this buff colored coat is circa 1730s

Just out of curiosity, may I ask where you found these pictures? And is there a date, however rough, for the second coat?

[Capt. Sterling]

Most are found from various museums on the web that allow you access to some of their photograph archives...example Victoria and Albert, The Manchester Galleries, and the Fashion Museum at Bath,... the dark brown coat (second one down) was a museum piece that was actually sold in order to make room for newer acquisitions... it dates circa 1720s

[Captain McCool]

Thanks for the info! I'll have to check those out. I really like the design of the brown coat here... and the fact that it is, in fact, a browncoat. But that's beside the point. I like the way the back vent lays, mainly. I'm also surprised at the smallness of the cuffs. I had always assumed (with my miniscule understanding of actual period clothing) that earlier basically equals bigger, when it comes to cuffs, and they got smaller as the 18th century progressed. But then, these are musings for another thread...

Edited January 27, 2010 by Captain McCool

[Capt. Sterling]

I can post a few more pictures of the brown coat...give me a few days...

[Captain McCool]

Sweet!

[Liam McMac]

This topic has made my day.... some of those seams were moved to a point that is hardly noticeable.

[Guest]

I can post a few more pictures of the brown coat...

Wot... are we postin' Firefly/Serenity stuff in TWILL now ?....

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