Jibs and fore stays'ls

[Daniel]

1. What is the difference between a jib and a fore staysail? That is, if you had a ship with three triangular sails forward of the foremast, and one person called them (from aft to fore) the inner jib, outer jib, and flying jib, and another person called the same sails the fore staysail, inner jib, and outer jib, is it just a matter of opinion, or is there an objective difference?

2. When were jibs (or fore staysails, if that was what they were first called) first introduced? Harland's Seamanship in the Age of Sail shows the Sovereign of the Seas in 1637 without a jib, and a 1756 warship with a jib. That leaves pretty well the whole GAoP in limbo. Would Morgan's ships have had a jib? Avery's Fancy? Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge?

3. How long did the jib and spritsails coexist? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a ship with a jib and spritsail topmast together. harland has a picture of a 1756 ship which has a jib, a spritsail, and a spritsail topsail, but the spritsail topsail yard is attached to the bowsprit forward of the sprisail yard, not to a separate spritsail topmast. I get the impression that jibs made spritsails obsolete, but I'm not sure how quickly.

[capn'rob]

In the "Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor" of 1808, the diagram of headsails depicts the fore staysail, the fore topmast staysail and the jib. That's starting on the fore stay and working forward. Below the bowsprit is the spritsail and outboard of it the spritsail topsail.

During this age, as with any, unless the country's coffers were full the vessels they had were what they could afford. Last week I was in the NC Maritime museum, looking at the model of the Queen Anne's Revenge. This is an Admiralty Model and in the detail thinking "this is some vessel for a Pirate to have taken!" The others in his fleet were sloops and the like. This ship was on par with what ever the Crown could send after him. All he had to do was not get stuck any where like on a sandbar where Lt. Maynard could catch him and lob off his brain bucket. Oh well. Lindsey's Law!

It appears to me that in 18th and 19th century sails set on stays were called stays'ls and by the stay they were bent to. The outermost seemingly called a jib. In later period are the terms inner, outer and flying jibs used. In the schooner era the fore staysail, fitted on a boom was refered to as a "Jumbo" and that carried over to ketchs and yawls fitted so as well.

[Dutchman]

cripes a mighty kid- no one word answers with you around!

1. What is the difference between a jib and a fore staysail? That is, if you had a ship with three triangular sails forward of the foremast, and one person called them (from aft to fore) the inner jib, outer jib, and flying jib, and another person called the same sails the fore staysail, inner jib, and outer jib, is it just a matter of opinion, or is there an objective difference?

a lot of the terminology depends on what type of ship its on. if you had a picture to add, it would help us take a look see. Generally, you are not going to see jibs as you are describing until around the end of squaresail era. they are foreward of the mast so they are fore such as... 1 Jib.(outermost) 2 Fore topmast staysail. (middle whos head is connected towards the peak of the topmast with the jib) 3 Fore staysail. (innermost whos head is connected to the lower mast)

2. When were jibs (or fore staysails, if that was what they were first called) first introduced? Harland's Seamanship in the Age of Sail shows the Sovereign of the Seas in 1637 without a jib, and a 1756 warship with a jib. That leaves pretty well the whole GAoP in limbo. Would Morgan's ships have had a jib? Avery's Fancy? Blackbeard's Queen Anne's Revenge?

no one really knows the answer to that one. not only is this the GAoP, but its the Golden Age of Sail and Exploration. technology is developing so fast your head will spin. Jibs are lateral sails going against the wind for driving force where the sails located under the bowsprit an era earlier could have been a Spritsail course or Spritsail topsail, with the difference being they are squaresail drivers. You have referenced two completely different ships and try to compare similar sails, unfortunately you can't really do it.

3. How long did the jib and spritsails coexist? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a ship with a jib and spritsail topmast together. harland has a picture of a 1756 ship which has a jib, a spritsail, and a spritsail topsail, but the spritsail topsail yard is attached to the bowsprit forward of the sprisail yard, not to a separate spritsail topmast. I get the impression that jibs made spritsails obsolete, but I'm not sure how quickly.

Jibs didn't make spritsails obsolete as you may be thinking. Rather, hull design, ships abilities and rigging made them obsolete. Square riggers are designed to go down wind best. Generally, they don't point worth a darn. Once working foresails were introduced, wow performance upwind improved. now an important thing to remember is that fore and aft rigs have been around long before squaresails as we are discussing- think chinese junks.

Hope this helps a little. I'm sure others will be able to fill in a lot of gaps here.

[Dutchman]

Ahoy Daniel- while way past GAOP, this treatise does shed a lot of light on your querry. hope it helps

http://books.google.com/books?id=LYFIAAAAYAAJ&dq=Treatise+On+Stay-Sails:+For+The+Purpose+Of+Intercepting+Wind+Between+The+Square-Sails+Of+Ships+And+Other+Square-Rigged+Vessels&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=x4iUYmB9ag&sig=3l6XcBYsPJbgKZhoRf8pWJUQ-0Q&hl=en&ei=9LxPS9-DIc7ZlAeZoPyrCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Daniel]

A belated thank you for the help, gentlemen.

I went to the website of the NC Maritime museum and looked over the QAR model: I notice that she has one forestaysail, as well as a spritsail. Other reconstructions that are out there on the Web are different, but I assume NC Maritime should have the best idea, given that they're digging the actual ship up!

From what you bopth are saying, it sounds like the names of the jibs or fore stays'ls depend more on the era than on their actual placement or design.

Thanks again.

[Poopdeck Pappy]

In answer to your first question the standard rigging on a square-rigged ship would be Fore Staysail which would be the largest of the forward staysails, then the inner jib, then the outer jib, and finally the flying jib. Also on the Fore mast you would find the course sail, the largest of the square sails; the fore staysail and course can't be flown at the same time, then the lower fore topsail, then the upper fore topsail, then the fore top gallant topsail, pronounced: T'GALLANT, and maybe a fore royal topsail depending on type of ship.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Poopdeck Pappy

[capn'rob]

Bear in mind that the great covenience of Split Topsails didn't come around until the second half of the 19th century.