Two Bits in 1705?

[Matty Bottles]

Hey, everybody! How's it going?

Great. Anyway, I wondered something about pieces of eight: Since they were milled and their value more or less standardized in 1732, were they commonly subdivided in to eight pieces (or two bits or four bits or whatever) before this time? I can't find any specific reference to a 'bit' nor can I find any information on the numismatic sites specifically indicating that pieces of eight were subdivided during the GAoP. I think it would be cool to know - the Archangel frequently plays hazard at events (I know we didn't do it much at PiP this year, but for some reason I kept going to bed early with my dice) and I think it would be cool to do a demo that way with period coins and whatnot, btu I wasn't sure if the real de ocho was commonly split up like it was during the AWI.

[michaelsbagley]

I don't know anything much about Spanish coins at the moment (pieces of eight were Spanish coins, weren't they?)... But I have been doing a fair bit of reading on period English coins recently... And as far as I can figure, English coin denominations go something like this...'

Guinea (Gold coins) = 4 crowns or 20 shillings

Crown (Silver or gold coins, there is some question according to Wikipedia as to whether these were used in our period or not) = 5 shillings (or a 1/4 guinea)

Shilling = 12 pence

Pence/Pennies = four farthings

Farthing (copper coins) = 1/4 pence (four farthings to a pence)

I've managed to collect originals for the Charles II reign (and some in the Queen Anne reign) in most of the lower denominations, but so far guineas and crowns seem to be out of my price range.

Perhaps if you look up the Spanish coins by their Spanish names, you might have better luck in discovering their value?

[Sjöröveren]

I just finished reading "Empire of Blue Water", which is an excellent book about Henry Morgan. Pieces of 8 are regularly referred to throughout. Morgan was born in 1635 and died in 1688, so his life bridged between the buccaneer period and the GAoP. So I think you're safe in using pieces of 8 while playing hazard.

[Quartermaster James]

I am unclear as to what you seek.

Is it: 1) Evidence that during the GAoP (and earlier?) the real de a ocho was being cut into eights, the small pieces themselves used as fractional currency, or 2) evidence of the word "bit" employed (presumably by English speakers?) to describe to describe these pieces?

Either way, here's something from an article on coinage in Barbados:

Throughout the Eighteenth century and into the early Ninteenth century Spanish American silver would be cut into "bitts" for small change and counterstamped for local circulation. From the 1704 Proclamation until 1739 the Spanish American dollar was valued at 8 bitts or 6s. Dollars cut into halves, quarters or eights were 4,2 and 1 bitt respecitvely, with a bitt valued at 9d. From 1740-1799 the debased Spanish two reales pistareen became the principal coin valued at 2 bitts or 1s3d and is found cut in half or quarters as 1 or 1/2 bitt coins (7.5d and 3.75d). During this period the Spanish American eight reales dollar (with a higher silver content per real that the debased pistareen) rose in value to 10 bitts or 6s3d, with half and quarter dollar cut coins passing at 5 and 2.5 bitts, with the eighths going out of use as they were replaced with cut pistareens.

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Barbados.intro.html

[Matty Bottles]

I've heard of the the 'piece of eight' being mentioned in materials from the GAoP, but there were also individual real coins, and two real coins, four etc. So the figure of speech 'piece of eight' could refer to the value of the coin (worth eight reales) but not necessarily the practice of physically dividing the coin into smaller sections. Sj'umlaut o'r'umlaut o'varen, does that book specifically mention the coins being broken up to make change or something? I am wondering if I it would be PC to use a piece of eight that had been cut if half, for example, or quarters.

Also, Michael, I have a copy of a queen anne half-crown and a william & mary half crown, so they were around. You should check out this site; the page I linked you to is just about denominations of coins used in the colonies, but the whole site is a fantastic resource including some very detailed images of coins. It's great.

[Matty Bottles]

I am unclear as to what you seek.

Is it: 1) Evidence that during the GAoP (and earlier?) the real de a ocho was being cut into eights, the small pieces themselves used as fractional currency, or 2) evidence of the word "bit" employed (presumably by English speakers?) to describe to describe these pieces?

I am looking for #1.

[Quartermaster James]

DELETED - Redundant

[michaelsbagley]

Also, Michael, I have a copy of a queen anne half-crown and a william & mary half crown, so they were around. You should check out this site; the page I linked you to is just about denominations of coins used in the colonies, but the whole site is a fantastic resource including some very detailed images of coins. It's great.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Now I know to look for those coins as they existed, and that they just may have not been used (much?) in the colonies.

[William Brand]

I am looking for #1.

Still, just for the sake of trivia for trivia's sake, the earliest reference to 'two bitts' dates back to 1730. The term 'bitts' was already being used to describe pieces of a spanish dollar as early as 1683 in colonial records, so the term might have been used that far back, but the earliest recorded reference comes from the diary of John Comer of Rhode Island: "I saw peach trees in ye blossom and many delightful varieties. Cost me two bitts."

[Matty Bottles]

Also, Michael, I have a copy of a queen anne half-crown and a william & mary half crown, so they were around. You should check out this site; the page I linked you to is just about denominations of coins used in the colonies, but the whole site is a fantastic resource including some very detailed images of coins. It's great.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Now I know to look for those coins as they existed, and that they just may have not been used (much?) in the colonies.

This might be of assistance, taken from that site I linked to earlier:

Although England restricted the export of its silver coinage, it is clear some British silver, as well as some British gold coins, found their way to the American colonies. Coins were brought to the colonies by settlers, by British officials and soldiers, as well as by merchants and sailors. Indeed, throughout the colonial period numerous tables were published listing the exchange rate of various foreign coins for a particular colony. In 1750 the Massachusetts legislature established rates of exchange for English coinage, an English guinea (valued in England at £1 1s or 21s) passed at twenty-eight Massachusetts shillings ( £1 8s ); an English crown (valued at 5s in England) passed for 6s8d local currency and an English shilling equalled 1s4d in Massachusetts money. From R. Saunders, A Pocket Almanack for 1751 , which was printed by Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia, we discover an English guinea passed at a rate of £1 14s in Pennsylvania, and according to the 1759 edition of Father Abraham's Almanack by Abraham Weatherwise of Philadelphia, the English sixpence coin (6d) was valued at 9d in both New York and Philadelphia, while the English crown (5s) passed for 7s6d in Philadelphia and 8s in New York (Click here for the table).

[Jack Roberts]

I hope not to derail the tread but another thing I have in question, when did the English start referring to the pound as a "quid"?

[William Brand]

The online Etymology dictionary takes this guess at quid.

"one pound sterling," 1688, British slang, possibly from quid "that which is" (1606, see quiddity), as used in quid pro quo (q.v.).

[Jack Roberts]

mmmm... could be period to use perhaps....

[Matty Bottles]

Jack, did you just derail my thread?

*incredulous*

[Jack Roberts]

Damn... I think the Archangels are getting a reputation for this.

[Matty Bottles]

Did you just try to derail your own derailment?!?!

*aghast*

Anyway, this is still about the piece of eight coin being proken into smaller pieces. I suspect the answer is a big, fat NO.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Matty Bottles

[Jack Roberts]

Well it could still see that happening to make sure that the "booty" was distributed evenly. Alas I have no proof of that actually happening.

Also I've noticed that a lot of silver coins are not very regular in their shape. Just look at the coins from the Wydah exhibit. They're all over the place. Some are square others round with an edge "bit" off.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Jack Roberts

[Matty Bottles]

Yeah, those new-world struck cobs are valued by weight, so they clipped off corners if there was too much. Also the production itself was fairly primitive.

[Matty Bottles]

Hey! It turns out Blackjohn posted the following quote on his Pirate Brethren site. The quote is from the book 'Port Royal, Jamiaca': Her captain, Richard Baker, then took her to work on 'the wreck' for a while, and the following June she returned from it with a haul of 'whole and broken pieces of eight'.

That makes me think that 'broken' pieces of eight were cut coins like we see so prevelant in the colonies after 1732. I think I would like to see one or two more instances of their use before I am comfortable using them in my kit*, though.

*As though I am some serious historical type. My shoes are the farbiest things known to man and my pistol is fifteen years out of period (although oddly enough, stamed with the name of a gunmaker from the 1690's). Still, I get all keyed up about certain things, and this is one of them.

[Cascabel]

Yeah, those new-world struck cobs are valued by weight, so they clipped off corners if there was too much. Also the production itself was fairly primitive.

Aye, the heavy coin making presses were not available in the New World at the time. Coins produced in European mints were quite well made, similar to modern quality. In the New World, however, coins were sliced off of cast ingots of approximate diameter with hammer and chisel. The slices were then flattened on an anvil, and weighed. Bits were nipped off the edges to bring them to proper weight, and then the slices were struck between a set of dies to stamp them with the proper front and back designs. Pretty primitive production methods, which resulted in varying quality coins, but all were Legal Tender. The coins were known as "cobs", hence the term "rough as a cob". They were made in several denominations.

The "milled", or "reeded" edges of coins made in regular mints were originally done to make it apparent if clipping or shaving of the coins had been done by dishonest people.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Quartermaster James]

Take a look at this: Economic History of Virginia in the Seventeenth Century.

Throughout, there are references to pieces of eight with citations to original documents from the 17th century. I suppose you will have to get a hold of those documents to have conclusive proof that the term was not too loosely translated to modern language, and still we are just speculating that a 17th century reference to silver coins as "pieces of eight" implies the coins were commonly cut and that "pieces of eight" was not just the common term for an eight real piece.

[Matty Bottles]

Take a look at this: Economic History of Virginia in the Seventeenth Century.

Throughout, there are references to pieces of eight with citations to original documents from the 17th century. I suppose you will have to get a hold of those documents to have conclusive proof that the term was not too loosely translated to modern language, and still we are just speculating that a 17th century reference to silver coins as "pieces of eight" implies the coins were commonly cut and that "pieces of eight" was not just the common term for an eight real piece.

Thanks, James! I'll take a look at this.