Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 I've seen a couple of websites that offer a "short sailors" waistcoat. I've seen pictures of a few reenactors with them on as well. What i am not finding is any historical mention of them. It's basically a waistcoat that only comes to the waist. Man I am full of questions this week. I'm hoping these were PC as i already picked one up last week from a Sutler in Saint Austine.
Silver Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 i think i saw those sold by somke and fire, they had alot of things that were french cut or style. you know the problem with the french is they are just so french. you might try doing a period sreach on the other side of the channel. pirates wear what they catch. it does look good they had a longer one they was good looking too.
callenish gunner Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Most of the period paintings I've seen of sailors depict them wearing a shorter waistcoat ...so I would surmise that they would indeed be period for GAOP but I have been wrong before ....(Did I type that out loud???) Gentleman of Fortune's page Edited November 19, 2009 by callenish gunner
michaelsbagley Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Most of the period paintings I've seen of sailors depict them wearing a shorter waistcoat ...so I would surmise that they would indeed be period for GAOP but I have been wrong before ....(Did I type that out loud???) Gentleman of Fortune's page I've looked for it recently (but not too hard), and not found it, but if you can find the link to Foxe's images of sailors from the GAoP, you will see that short waistcoats seem to be a bit more common than the longer ones (for sailors anyways). And I will state (overstate) that while short waistcoats seem to be more common (based on those images and others I have seen), long waistcoats are seen enough as well. Or there is always the chance that Foxe will see this and re-post the link himself (or BlackJohn and/or GoF often seems to have this link at his fingertips as well).
Bos'n Cross Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 My research seems to correspond with mikes.....if the sailors had waistcoats, they seemed to be of a shorter cut that those of an average man(my impression has always been so that they would fit under the short jackets)....bbbuuutttt more than anything, iv seen more engravings and paintings showing sailors oonnllyy wearing the jackets and neckerchiefs on the upper body...but thats just what iv seen........ -Israel Cross- - Boatswain of the Archangel - . Colonial Seaport Foundation Crew of the Archangel
Hawkyns Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 It's often hard to tell from period engravings, but are we sure we are talking about short waistcoats and not jerkins? The cut of the one in the picture, especially the pockets, just seems to scream 19th C to me. Even the shortest of the pics in Foxe's collection does not show anything above the waistline. I see several that could be either waistcoat or jerkin but all extend below the belt line. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends.
MarkG Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 It's often hard to tell from period engravings, but are we sure we are talking about short waistcoats and not jerkins? The cut of the one in the picture, especially the pockets, just seems to scream 19th C to me. Even the shortest of the pics in Foxe's collection does not show anything above the waistline. I see several that could be either waistcoat or jerkin but all extend below the belt line. Hawkyns I think that a sleeved, short waistcoat was common among sailors from late in the 17th century well into the 18th century. You can see this in several period pictures including the ones of Anne Bonny and Mary Read dressed as men (with cleavage). The one of Blackbeard wearing a thrum cap might also be a sleeved waistcoat. All it takes is once in a boat in a longer waistcoat and you see why they wore shorter ones.
CrazyCholeBlack Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 What luck you're in, as I happen to have the 1731 & 1740 slop contracts out on my desk today :) Striped ticken waistcoats not less than 30 inches in length (1731) or specifically 30" (1740) Kersey waistcoats 31.5 & 29 inches in length, depending on quality/cost (both years) It's also important to note that the ticken waistcoats are lined with white linen & have 2 linen pockets, while the kersey waistcoats are unlined & have no mention of pockets. Chole "If part of the goods be plundered by a pirate the proprietor or shipmaster is not entitled to any contribution." An introduction to merchandize, Robert Hamilton, 1777Slightly Obsessed, an 18th Century reenacting blog
Dorian Lasseter Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Interesting topic... I was conversing with a fellow in France and he sent me an image out of a book - I wish I knew what book - of a sailor, circa 1700, wearing a short jacket over a long wesket... And check out the moustache!!! Edit; Here's the site it's from; http://historic-marine-france.com/uniforme/uniformeimagerie.htm Edited November 20, 2009 by Dorian Lasseter Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org
Capt. Sterling Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 oh thanks Dorian "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Dorian Lasseter Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Comment, Capitaine Sterling? Y a-t-il un problème ? Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org
Capt. Sterling Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Non, aucun problème, juste un intéressant trouve. Il est agréable de voir autre chose. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Dorian Lasseter Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Mais oui! Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org
Cuisto Mako Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) Carefull there, these images of french sailors from the 17th and 18th century are actually contemporary stuff from the early 20th century Edited November 20, 2009 by Cuisto Mako
Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted November 20, 2009 Author Posted November 20, 2009 Just found this in my collection. I remember this illustration is just slightly out of period, but I think it is pretty clear what this sailor is wearing.
MarkG Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Just found this in my collection. I remember this illustration is just slightly out of period, but I think it is pretty clear what this sailor is wearing. This looks pretty consistent with earlier ones. No pockets. Smaller cuffs than landsmen wear so that the sleeves don't get caught on things. I've heard that sailor's fashions changed more slowly than other trades. Notice that his tricorn is "backwards". I've seen this before on sailors. Mark
Capt. Sterling Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Carefull there, these images of french sailors from the 17th and 18th century are actually contemporary stuff from the early 20th century Most assuredly agree, but sure has opened a door to want to start looking for any extant 17th/18th century evidence those pictures are based on... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Capt. Sterling Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Hey look it's Sterling! **Whack** do I have to put ye on a leash too, like Dogge?? Like I would ever wear such a colour combination....sheesh... Edited November 21, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Cheeky Actress Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 Hmm...I do remember a light coloured coat...but green stockings...Robert. They would have to be green! Member of "The Forsaken"
Capt. Sterling Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Actually it seems green was the rage during the 1660s-70s(a time frame, the crewe is not doing as far as pyracy goes)... Kass has stated some where in Twill that shades of indigo were more in keeping with our time frame... Edited November 21, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Jack Roberts Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 I really need to start working on my period dye swatch book.
Fox Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 There's a link to my (badly in need of updating) picture site in my signature, and there's a discussion about these French sailor images somewhere on the Pirate Brethren forum. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Badger Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) Is green EVER out o' fashion?!? Edited November 22, 2009 by Badger
Gentleman of Fortune Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Here is my Short Jacket Page http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/Jacket.htm Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression!
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