Forming Re-Enactor Umbrella Organizations

[callenish gunner]

Participation in LIFE comes with some level of assumed risk. What I have tried to refer to is if our actions in any way injures a member of the public or another reenactor through no fault of their own. I for one applaud the efforts of Dutch and the CSF. In my years of acting and reenacting I have seen all sorts of crazy happenings that have left somebody hurt. The one friend who ended up getting a cannon blast to the face from 8 feet away that left him blind was the one that brought it home to me. The damage can be permanent and life altering.

If you want to play and not worry about yourself is one thing, but I'll damned if you'll be reckless around my child and risk his health and well being!

[michaelsbagley]

No Dutch, your original intent was in a nutshell "join our group, you'll become a subgroup to us and have to follow our rules, but you get the benefit of our insurance"... I am paraphrasing, and I hope in doing so I am not destroying your original offer... But what that offer has to do with the philosophy of re-enacting is beyond me.

Your offer was a divergence from the thread's beginnings, although it was moving in that direction. It is hardly right for you to feel put out that things have diverged from the original topic (Philosophy of re-enacting) to dissecting your offer, and now off into other tangents.

Whatever your intent, if you wanted it to be on focus, you probably should have posted the offer in it's own thread. This topic will and probably should meander and drift as philosophy does. After all that is what the topic is. Hope this comes as the friendly advice it is intended to be and nothing else.

[RedJessi]

No one is asking or telling anyone they must join up, but as others have stated, venues are getting harder and harder to deal with so pardon me for offering to see if there was a way to help small or new groups or individuals that may need assistance with either insurance or resources to enable them to take the field.

Again, I ask that you give creedance to the idea that none of this is meant as a personal attack against you. No one that I have seen has suggested anything negative about the fact that you are willing to offer your experience in setting up insurance as a bad thing, so using emotional loaded language like "pardon me for offering" does nothing but create exactly the sort of division I think most of us are trying to avoid.

[Commodore Swab]

Lest we forget that we are all already part of a single group and that being pyracy.com we come from many different backgrounds and have many different ideals yet we all still manage to coexist.

In regards to insurance I dispise the fact that frankly it is needed due to the sue happy people of this country and the lawyers who will do all they can to get a buck so the less painful for the individual the better. Someone who travels and goes to many events will naturally have a higher risk (even if its from a falling brick) than someone who only does an even or two a year.

There are people (I feel Jessi and Mission are in this group along with myself) who try to make their kit as accurate as possible yet don't participate in as many events as others might, we aren't hollywood pirates yet may not be involved enough to warant joining a particular group. For myself this is why I enjoy PiP, it gives us a chance to play with everyone. For those who are more correct and might wish to make comments to my garb I welcome them but try to remember I am not as serious as you may be and therefore constructive crictism is much prefered.

[Hawkyns]

Someone who travels and goes to many events will naturally have a higher risk (even if its from a falling brick) than someone who only does an even or two a year.

There are people (I feel Jessi and Mission are in this group along with myself) who try to make their kit as accurate as possible yet don't participate in as many events as others might

Interesting point. While they may not all be pirate events, between pirate, Elizabethan, Rev War, and the occasional Frog and Savage event, I'm under canvas at least 3 weekends out of 4 between March and Novemeber. That number will probably increase this year as I add some southern events to the schedule.

Hawkyns

[Ransom]

Just a quick intervention:

So far, no one has pointed any fingers at anyone, done any name-calling, or done any of the other less than admirable dust ups that come with two opposing sides discussing a hot topic/topics. These are ideas open for interpretation and free discussion. And threads will drift, come back OT and drift again. Unless it goes totally sideways, that's okay.

Right then, Mod-voice turned off:

Let the fun continue...

[Capt. Sterling]

Was someone going to split these posts into two different topics?

This thread really has evolved again.

(Yeah, I know I could do it, but I'm still fiddling around with the Quotes issue.)

Ah I have my own personal fiddler..sniggering

[Capt. Sterling]

Hallelujah it works again!!! Blackjohn you have fiddled to perfection...

[RedJessi]

There are people (I feel Jessi and Mission are in this group along with myself) who try to make their kit as accurate as possible yet don't participate in as many events as others might, we aren't hollywood pirates yet may not be involved enough to warant joining a particular group.

I am honored to be counted in such good company!

[Capt. Sterling]

(It would be cool to hear someone say, "He was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

Ack, honestly Mission that is hard to even take as funny let alone cool...especially knowing someone who lost an arm to one...

[Edward O'Keeffe]

Mission would you be willing to fire that cannon if it wasn't covered by insurance?

Quite frankly, I didn't know it was covered by insurance. As I said previously, I don't care a whit. Ya' gotta go somehow or another... (It would be cool to hear someone say, "He was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

Mission,

I generally stay out of topics like this, but this must be addressed. This is the most bone-headed comment I have ever read. Lets try it again with proper name inserted in place of the undefined He...

Quite frankly, I didn't know it was covered by insurance. As I said previously, I don't care a whit. Ya' gotta go somehow or another... (It would be cool to hear someone say, "Edward, Dutch, William (Insert any other name here) was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

Not amusing in the slightest.

Think before you type.

[Commodore Swab]

As the topic twists and turns I just got pictures today that were taken when we fired a friends ashes out of the mortar and it was nerve racking for me doing it off the boat and keeping all of the people who were drinking (not myself) in a safe area and maintaining a level of safety.

Since we didn't have primers I had filled the touch hole with powder after pricking to decrease the fuse delay as well as remove the risk of the fuse going out as it burned thru the inches of bronze. This is why you see the flame coming out the touch hole just prior to ignition.

[blackjohn]

Hallelujah it works again!!! Blackjohn you have fiddled to perfection...

Oh!

Ok!

Cool!

Glad to be of service!

[Mission]

Mission would you be willing to fire that cannon if it wasn't covered by insurance?

Quite frankly, I didn't know it was covered by insurance. As I said previously, I don't care a whit. Ya' gotta go somehow or another... (It would be cool to hear someone say, "He was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

Mission,

I generally stay out of topics like this, but this must be addressed. This is the most bone-headed comment I have ever read. Lets try it again with proper name inserted in place of the undefined He...

Quite frankly, I didn't know it was covered by insurance. As I said previously, I don't care a whit. Ya' gotta go somehow or another... (It would be cool to hear someone say, "Edward, Dutch, William (Insert any other name here) was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

Not amusing in the slightest.

Think before you type.

I still think it's funny, but based on the responses I apparently have a warped sense of humor. I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet. Still, since you all insist, let me restate it this way (You can all continue give me hell for saying it if you like. I may well deserve it.):

Mission was killed by cannon fire in 20xx. And he didn't even have insurance!

Note that this is not an endorsement of irresponsible or foolish behavior such as drinking and using weapons or failing to follow safety procedures. But you plays the game, you takes your chances. The only thing that I would feel bad about (well, provided that was possible) is that it would probably lead to misguided legislation.

[Rumba Rue]

Our group Pirates of Treasure Cove was originally part of a group called Biggins. Sadly Biggins has backwards thinking and because they want people to join first and pay before finding out what the group was all about (putting the cart before the horse) was just one of the reasons why we split from them.

They are also so paranoid that someone might actually sue them that they regulate everything they do.....mind you they only set up a few games at events that can't hurt anyone!

Lets face it, if someone decides to sue for whatever reason, they can regardless of so-called rules...which by the way only cover the participants, not the guests.

We looked into the possibility of joining another group because they had insurance, but again because we would have to be under their rules and guidelines, things we do, we couldn't. So with that we decided not to get insurance for the following reasons:

1. The cost is extrodinary....we're talking several thousand dollars a year.

2. You have to come up with specific guidelines/rules in order to have it.

3. Since all we do is put out books and hand out scrolls to people with book lists, and read stories to kids, we felt we didn't really need it.

4. Insurance only covers loss, theft, or injury to participants, not the general public which are more likely to get hurt. The majority of us know when we join a particular type of group that does the Ren-faires, pirate events and so on, we are responsible for our own well being and getting hurt might happen. Unless a participant is deliberatly responsible for hurting someone else, then that goes under a whole different situation....like getting kicked out. (Which btw should have happened in PRP when a particular person tried to hurt another by having a lackey put a spider in her purse)

Besides, here on the west coast, all Directors of events must have insurance and it also covers the participants and vendors.

Honestly, unless you are handling black powder/guns/swords or other things used for fighting you don't need it.

I know the SCA has insurance, but if you have ever watched those guys beat the crap out of each other with heavy weapons you know why they have insurance.

[Quartermaster James]

Our group Pirates of Treasure Cove was originally part of a group called Biggins. Sadly Biggins has backwards thinking <SNIP>

Sadly Biggins...now there's a Hobbit name, if'n I e'er 'eard one!

[Quartermaster James]

Mission was killed by cannon fire in 20xx. And he didn't even have insurance!

Note that this is not an endorsement of irresponsible or foolish behavior such as drinking and using weapons or failing to follow safety procedures. But you plays the game, you takes your chances.

A wrongful death case is relatively cheap and easy compared to, say, Mission suffered a traumatic brain injury because of a cannon and will require skilled nursing care for the rest of his projected life expectancy.

[hurricane]

Fear not, Mission. I got your attempt at a little black humor. Some people don't get it. I'm in trouble all the time here. Life is not meant to be so danged serious.

Case in point - Diosa racked herself into a light pole after being sideswiped. Almost killed her. Didn't stop any one of my crewe from making endless jokes about it and what her funeral would have been like if she had the light embedded in her body (at least we could have the services at night). So, I'm with ya!

-- Hurricane

[Quartermaster James]

Strange timing, but via the Frontier Folk board I just was alerted to this: Cannon blasts ramrod into bystander.

You have to love this quote though: "It can be tricky stuff when you’re dealing with gunpowder," said Dan Donahue, the fort’s safety officer.

[Mission]

Mission was killed by cannon fire in 20xx. And he didn't even have insurance!

Note that this is not an endorsement of irresponsible or foolish behavior such as drinking and using weapons or failing to follow safety procedures. But you plays the game, you takes your chances.

A wrongful death case is relatively cheap and easy compared to, say, Mission suffered a traumatic brain injury because of a cannon and will require skilled nursing care for the rest of his projected life expectancy.

Well, first of all I have written instructions saying I am not to be put on machines. So if that's the issue, that's not an issue. (Well, inasmuch as I can make it not be an issue.) Second, we all run this risk when playing with fire (literally) and I have specified in the second quote [as you quoted above] that I follow all the safety precautions I'm aware of, so what is the alternative? Never fire cannons? (Actually, I'm ok with that. I find it most humorous to be a cannon firing surgeon re-enactor, but I can live without that title as well.) Third, the insurance we have been referring to is the org. insurance which isn't health insurance so this whole brain damage problem is irrelevant to the context of the discussion. Fourth, since I won't be conscious I probably won't care. Much. Fifth, I clearly said "killed" so you are changing the rules here. (Admittedly, I though it would eventually come to this when someone clever saw that little loophole in my grandiose statements of 'no fear!') Sixth, I don't have a sixth, but I thought there should be six because everyone thinks in terms of fives or tens or hundreds. Why is that?

Now I feel like singing Digger Smolken's greatest hits...