Forming Re-Enactor Umbrella Organizations

[Capt. Sterling]

Each coast, or midland, is going to have different priorities, depending on the number and type of events held in their part of the world. I don't think one set of rules is going to work for each region. I would also be afraid these satellite governing bodies would end up creating more regional differences within the pyracy community than there already are.

Honestly, who's to say that there has to be one huge governing body even if all the regions decided to form their own larger unions? Just because one group belongs to the east coast union, doesn't mean they can't play with a midland's union...

The group currently in thought, doesn't have any intentions of not playing with others because they aren't members of the group...they are just trying to make things easier for those that may wish to join...

[Capt. Sterling]

Ugh, my head hurts from all this spinning...

yeah tell me about it... snigger...

[theM.A.dDogge]

Well it just happens that a person on the east coast is attempting to try such an organizing...why not open up such a suggestion on the west coast...? no one is stopping you...

Gah! No thanks. I merely wanted to point out that, even if the East coast governing body (by some miracle) actually worked, then a few years down the road, the West coast decided to create their own governing body, then, say the South and Midwest does the same...who then governs the governing bodies? Each coast, or midland, is going to have different priorities, depending on the number and type of events held in their part of the world. I don't think one set of rules is going to work for each region. I would also be afraid these satellite governing bodies would end up creating more regional differences within the pyracy community than there already are.

Oh, and I vote for M.A. d'Dogge for Pyrate King, just as soon as he's done with the dishes.

who would rule over all dominions???....

why the Pyrate King...of course

fyne...i accept

and my first decree.....

....back to the dishes....

[Capt. Sterling]

Captain Dishpan hands...

[Capt. Sterling]

Mickey I think you have a point that when events cover everyone it is a nice fringe benefit...but what if the injured party not only sues the event but goes after you as indivdiual? then what?

or at least I think that is what Hugh is getting at...

[callenish gunner]

And remember the hair cut you got at PIP M.A. d'Dogg as Pirate King you'd be required to get the "Full-Louis"

:D

[Hawkyns]

Meaning re-enactors need insurance at events that require them to have it. It doesn't protect us, it protects the event sponsors.

Still not seeing why I should care... I'd rather just skip those events.

That may be a solution for you out in the midwest, where there are not so many venues that have a historical link, but it can be a problem for us out here. As we start to look at more and more historic sites- Fort Mifflin in Phiily comes to mind, a revwar fort (much modified) on the Delaware River that is reenactor friendly- and start to expand on the town Pirate Festivals, it becomes more of an issue. Same goes if we want to do anything at the major or minor renfests.

It is all about what you want to do, as I said. If all you want to do is wander around in pirate garb, then insurance is an issue. If you want to get into more and more of the arts-ship, firearm, and sword- insurance is more and more neccesary. We are asked about it everytime we go out up here in New England.

Hawkyns

[theM.A.dDogge]

as far as issurance goes...this has been a debate for decades within all the comunities....no good outcome as of yet.

i personally tend to shun events that require me to pick up my own participation ryder(other than my own personal)....and frequent those that cover us under their ryder....over the years...more an more venues are threatning to start requiring us as a group as well as individuals just to participate....or the "maybe next year"...because most of them were being threatned by the issurance companies of raising their policies....

and that effcts the bottom line of any event....and Mickey...you will find less and less evnts if the issurance policies strat raising and their arnet profits being made(by anyone except the issurance companies).....

the fear now is....with the Health Care/Issurance debacle going on...the insurance companies stand to lose billions in profit...where do you think they will start squeasing stones to make up the difference???

i hope not my stones!!!

am i advocating participant issurance.....no way...i am advocating the get rid of the need for them....

but if/when it comes to a time...that ALL events will start passing the buck...on to the participants...then a umbrella coverage might be the way to go...might

[Mission]

It is all about what you want to do, as I said. If all you want to do is wander around in pirate garb, then insurance is an issue. If you want to get into more and more of the arts-ship, firearm, and sword- insurance is more and more neccesary. We are asked about it everytime we go out up here in New England.

I am guessing you meant to say, "If all you want to do is wander around in pirate garb, then insurance is not an issue" ? That's all I want to do. And fire someone else's cannon if the opportunity presents itself. (Which may put me in the line of fire. Hee hee hee...)

I honestly think you guys are vastly overestimating the lawyer's interest in you - even the ambulance chasers. I have dealt with Haunted House insurance for well over a decade and they just don't seem to care about the actors, unless they are CEOs of reasonably-sized companies.

In fact, they are more interested in suing the city and the group running the HH. So forming a group makes you a bigger target, in a way.

[Capt. Sterling]

but the individual would be covered...

[Hawkyns]

As I'm seeing all of this, it reverts back to this morning's part of the discussion. The "elite" see the insurance and umbrella organisation as a good thing, because it opens up more venues and things to do. Others see it as a threat, since once we start doing things a bit more professionally, it could mean that to participate, rules would have to be followed. It could mean that we are looking at a divergence between the more accurate events with much participation, and the festival types, where many pyrates are little more than spectators in kit.

Pay to play is always out there and it's never bothered me. I've been doing it as long as I've been reenacting, even the pyrate crew I've been working with charges dues to cover the insurance. Sometimes I pay a site fee as well. It doesn't bother me. I do this for me, so I expect to pay for the privilege of having fun, just as I would at an amusement park, campground, movie theater or anywhere else that I go to have fun. The crowd or the fact that the site gets more visitors because we are there does not affect my decision on this at all.

Hawkyns

[Capt. Sterling]

Mission would you be willing to fire that cannon if it wasn't covered by insurance?

[RedJessi]

As I'm seeing all of this, it reverts back to this morning's part of the discussion. The "elite" see the insurance and umbrella organisation as a good thing, because it opens up more venues and things to do. Others see it as a threat, since once we start doing things a bit more professionally, it could mean that to participate, rules would have to be followed. It could mean that we are looking at a divergence between the more accurate events with much participation, and the festival types, where many pyrates are little more than spectators in kit.

Hawkyns, I'm curious as to why you ascribe the title of "elite" to those who want insurance - as, from my point of view at least - that was a totally separate debate? I am not picking up the crossover of topics you are implying...

[callenish gunner]

How many of us inquire about what liability coverage is at events and what and whom does it cover? And firing a cannon can be construed as an act by an independent agent who assumes liability once behind the cannon. In legal parlance the attorney may place you in the mix to cover their potential backside as to who ultimately is culpable for damages. I know I can't afford to lose my property or livelihood due to the legal system. Even as an independent reenactor I have assumed a huge amount of personal liability, which I wouldn't mind paying a small premium or membership fee to alleviate. Many venues have already gotten the squeeze put on them by insurance companies and have been forced to close or curtail events. Just as many Renfaires don't allow any weapons (peace-tied or otherwise) inside their gates, that is mostly due to insurance coverage. I have had to carry personal liability in my years doing stage combat at faires and festivals just as I have to have coverage as a teacher before I go into a classroom.

It comes down to where liability lies and does somebody need to get hurt or killed to make certain all aspects of the events are as secure as we can make them. Take for instance the civil war reenactor who was shot recently during a "mock" battle or the lass who showed up at PIP with a loaded pistol who wanted to step into a battle scenario. The actions of individuals make them legally culpable for damages regardless of the ownership of the device or property that causes the injury.

[Ransom]

The "Elite" deciding what and where and how much over the rest of the so-called "plebes" (non-elite — but then there is the issue of who decides who is elite and who isn't), smacks a little too close to "We'll save them from themselves" mentality.

With blanket insurance comes blanket rules. If I may use an example:

The SCA covered equestrian events under their blanket insurance. We were handed a set of rules we had to follow. Rather than use the National Show Horse Assoc. (Another governing body with years of experience with all types of horse events) they made up their own. Which put us in the position of having to run "ability" tests on riders before each event, and decide at what level they could compete. Which opened up a huge case for liable if said person inured themselves because they really couldn't ride as well through a whole even, as they could a few turns doing walk, trot, and canter around the arena (which was all the rule required). We even tried to get that changed to having arena stuards, who would eject any horse/rider who was acting in a unsafe way, regardless of their level of expertise — as does the NSHA. No such luck (although we did it anyway). So, at any given event, we were saying "this person can ride at this level." If said person inured themselves or anyone else, what would prevent them from coming back and saying, "Well, you said I could ride at this level, so it's not my fault. Therefore, I'm suing you for a false assessment of my skills."

I don't know how you could have a blanket insurance policy that would cover every reenacting scenerio including black powder pistols, cannons, swords, boats, and even at Ojai, horses. Nor do I think any insurance company would risk an all-inclusive policy for so many liabilities.

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm we had em in AWI...so they must be available, or at least they were, horses, pistols, muskets, artillery pieces and swords, and we were never asked to "prove" our riding experience...

[Ransom]

I'm not altogether sure if it was the insurance companies who made the testing rules, or the paranoia of the "governing body" of the SCA. We never knew. And the example I stated was only one of the snafu's with rules we ran into at the equestrian events. We tried to get them to allow individual waivers...nope. Couldn't do that either. It was a real pain in the a$$.

[Capt. Sterling]

I'm not altogether sure if it was the insurance companies who made the testing rules, or the paranoia of the "governing body" of the SCA. We never knew. And the example I stated was only one of the snafu's with rules we ran into at the equestrian events. We tried to get them to allow individual waivers...nope. Couldn't do that either. It was a real pain in the a$$.

In the long run, and here we are at the mercy of the insurance companies, who is willing to offer what? And like Maddogge stated... the insurance companies are calling all the shots. I know the group we had our insurance with back in the AWI days, no longer will cover reenactors, period.

[Mission]

Mission would you be willing to fire that cannon if it wasn't covered by insurance?

Quite frankly, I didn't know it was covered by insurance. As I said previously, I don't care a whit. Ya' gotta go somehow or another... (It would be cool to hear someone say, "He was killed by cannon fire." Ok, 'hear' isn't quite the right word, but...)

[Mission]

As I'm seeing all of this, it reverts back to this morning's part of the discussion. The "elite" see the insurance and umbrella organisation as a good thing, because it opens up more venues and things to do. Others see it as a threat, since once we start doing things a bit more professionally, it could mean that to participate, rules would have to be followed. It could mean that we are looking at a divergence between the more accurate events with much participation, and the festival types, where many pyrates are little more than spectators in kit.

Hawkyns, I'm curious as to why you ascribe the title of "elite" to those who want insurance - as, from my point of view at least - that was a totally separate debate? I am not picking up the crossover of topics you are implying...

I kind of wondered about that as well. You seem to be ascribing responsible traits to serious re-enactors and calling the rest of us inaccurate or festival types. I believe my kit and presentation is about as accurate as I can make it at this point and I think the insurance thing is silly. (I believe it's another symptom of the "culture of fear" we've had running rampant in this country in the last ten or twenty years.)

[Hawkyns]

Hawkyns, I'm curious as to why you ascribe the title of "elite" to those who want insurance - as, from my point of view at least - that was a totally separate debate? I am not picking up the crossover of topics you are implying...

In my mind it comes down to professionalism. Those of us who want to do more and be more

understand that there are costs involved with that. Costs that are both financial and restrictive. That applies whether you are running a full scale sea battle between ships, a sword circle, or interactive street theater. Being just somebody in pirate kit is not enough for me. If I class myself as a 16th or 17th century sea gunner, it is important to me that I actually have as many of the skills as I can to support that. Just saying it is not enough, I have to be able to prove it, to myself and others. In order to do that, I have to participate in activities that are dangerous to both myself, the crew around me, and the spectators. In order for venues to allow me to do that, they want more than my handshake to prove I know what I am doing. Insurance, qualifications, standards- all of these speak to the mundane risk analysts that I am not some yahoo with a cutlass and a pistol that is likely to sink their ship when I fire a broadside. If somebody is going to do street theater with little kids, they want to be sure that the pirate is not a pedophile or likely to somehow injure the kids while fooling around. They want to be able to point to some group that has connections with other sites that can say "Yeah, we've worked with these guys and their organisation. they're OK."

Hawkyns

[Dutchman]

I seem to recall at recent events people regaling stories of learning to row or being asked to be on a gun crew. heck there are even pictures of people in this very thread that are climbing ships ladders without helmets or netting under them. OH MY GOSH what if something happened?

If you don't need insurance or are not interested in working with other groups thats your kitty. In a nutshell, we (as in CSF)must have insurance because of the boat, we decided to have one blanket policy for all that we do. Its based in Hampton because well, thats where we are. Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what we did. I will be more than happy to help anyone walk through the four months of paperwork. No one is asking or telling anyone they must join up, but as others have stated, venues are getting harder and harder to deal with so pardon me for offering to see if there was a way to help small or new groups or individuals that may need assistance with either insurance or resources to enable them to take the field. Heck I dont even know if the insurance will ride in some states, but we will never know unless someone asks.

edit* i enjoy my yearly encounter with the insurance agent AND the fire marshal who are standing on shore next to out representative at the BB festival. Both of them cringe as the guns go off almost on top of each other, pirates cross over and eventually one ends up in the drink. You can literally hear the Fire Marshall pucker up until the man is safely aboard the chase boat. That is trully the best show in the house.

[RedJessi]

I kind of wondered about that as well. You seem to be ascribing responsible traits to serious re-enactors and calling the rest of us inaccurate or festival types. I believe my kit and presentation is about as accurate as I can make it at this point and I think the insurance thing is silly. (I believe it's another symptom of the "culture of fear" we've had running rampant in this country in the last ten or twenty years.)

First the fundamental attribution error and now the culture of fear? You are going to make me swoon, Mission!

Hawkyns, I'm curious as to why you ascribe the title of "elite" to those who want insurance - as, from my point of view at least - that was a totally separate debate? I am not picking up the crossover of topics you are implying...

In my mind it comes down to professionalism. Those of us who want to do more and be more

understand that there are costs involved with that. Costs that are both financial and restrictive. That applies whether you are running a full scale sea battle between ships, a sword circle, or interactive street theater. Being just somebody in pirate kit is not enough for me. If I class myself as a 16th or 17th century sea gunner, it is important to me that I actually have as many of the skills as I can to support that. Just saying it is not enough, I have to be able to prove it, to myself and others. In order to do that, I have to participate in activities that are dangerous to both myself, the crew around me, and the spectators. In order for venues to allow me to do that, they want more than my handshake to prove I know what I am doing. Insurance, qualifications, standards- all of these speak to the mundane risk analysts that I am not some yahoo with a cutlass and a pistol that is likely to sink their ship when I fire a broadside. If somebody is going to do street theater with little kids, they want to be sure that the pirate is not a pedophile or likely to somehow injure the kids while fooling around. They want to be able to point to some group that has connections with other sites that can say "Yeah, we've worked with these guys and their organisation. they're OK."

Hawkyns

I am still not catching the correlation. My dictionary widget says that the definition of elite is a group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their wealth, power or talent. It also comes from the French elire, derived from the Latin eligere - 'to elect'.

Nothing in there about believing in insurance or the positive benefit of organizations, nor is there anything in your statement about being electing.

I am sure I am missing something, but I cannot think what.

[blackjohn]

Was someone going to split these posts into two different topics?

This thread really has evolved again.

(Yeah, I know I could do it, but I'm still fiddling around with the Quotes issue.)

[Dutchman]

nah lets leave it. i'm enjoying watching my pleas for sanity and offers of help get burried as people just plow over the original intent.