Forming Re-Enactor Umbrella Organizations

[Dutchman]

not wanting to pull this too far off topic, but I think were in a pretty unique situation here. Instead of being a crew, we're set up as a 501c3 foundation, which has members, volunteers, and staff but is governed by a board of directors. the directors are the only ones that vote, but we rely heavily on the opinion of staff and volunteers, because if they aren't happy, we have seven board members and a pile of toothpicks. I only know of one other "pirate" reenacting group who has insurance and that is Blackbeards- our sister. We have a set of standards that we follow for safety and history/education.

In theory, if a "crew" were to join the foundation, the insurance would follow them provided they followed the foundations guidelines and if any chance for shameless marketing on behalf of the foundation provided itself, donations came back to the ship.

This could also be a central house for loaner supplies and reference materials.

the problem would then be, the crew would loose some of its individuality because, well its our rules. and eventually everything would end up being the same, just a different venue.

any thoughts?

[hurricane]

not wanting to pull this too far off topic, but I think were in a pretty unique situation here. Instead of being a crew, we're set up as a 501c3 foundation, which has members, volunteers, and staff but is governed by a board of directors. the directors are the only ones that vote, but we rely heavily on the opinion of staff and volunteers, because if they aren't happy, we have seven board members and a pile of toothpicks. I only know of one other "pirate" reenacting group who has insurance and that is Blackbeards- our sister. We have a set of standards that we follow for safety and history/education.

In theory, if a "crew" were to join the foundation, the insurance would follow them provided they followed the foundations guidelines and if any chance for shameless marketing on behalf of the foundation provided itself, donations came back to the ship.

This could also be a central house for loaner supplies and reference materials.

the problem would then be, the crew would loose some of its individuality because, well its our rules. and eventually everything would end up being the same, just a different venue.

any thoughts?

Thoughts? Been there, done that 26 years ago. Not wanting to get involved again with all the rules and more important, a small board telling the worker bees what to do. It has just never worked in my life - two pirate groups tried and failed to make this concept work well - there was always division, derision and power struggles. Plus resentment on behalf of the worker bees who don't like being told what and how to do things with their volunteer time.

I wish you well and perhaps my two experiences where the exceptions not the rule. For me, work has enough rules and requirements - my vacation time should be just that - vacation from all the rules and regulations.

I'd have to say I am with Mission on this one. Pyrating is not my job, it is my release from my job.

I'm surprised Animal didn't cover this already. Guess his memory was erased on the drive north. :) muhahaha, says the pot stirrer.

-- Hurricane

[Capt. Sterling]

the problem would then be, the crew would loose some of its individuality because, well its our rules. and eventually everything would end up being the same, just a different venue.

any thoughts?

Hmmm crews don't really have to lose their individuality because they would still be operating under their own standards as well and be members of the foundation...

There is no reason why the foundation could not advertise as, for example, the Foundation including members as Bluebeard crew, Redbeards crew and Yellowbeards crew... and vice versa where the member crews also advertise themselves as Yellowbeards crew a member of the Foundation... kind of like the construction companies, they are all individual businesses but are members of the such groups like the National Association of Home Builders or Long Island Builders Institute...etc.

These groups provide group insurance, networking, classes, and sometimes work...and there are obviously some rules/regulations but a business is free to operate on their own when not committed to something directly for the "foundation"

the only way pirate crews might lose individuality is if the foundation's standards are not as high as their own or vastly different, or the foundation tries to set all the rules for all their members on how to operate...

such as, there is a disagreement with the standards regarding clothing standards...where one member crew is wearing blends or cottons and another member crew is wearing correct fabrics..or where one crew allows children and another doesn't..bucketboots and fallfront breeches or no bucketboots and fallfront breeches...is the foundation going to step in and try to dictate regarding such specific issues? (Major nightmares!!)

Or are we talking mainly about safety issues, how many events does each member crew need to commit to, and perhaps fringe benefits when and if they are ever available...etc, etc...etc...

Edited October 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[michaelsbagley]

I tend to strongly agree with both Mission and Hurricane on the concept of a "standards" group/"parent" org/or whatever spin one could choose to put onto such a thing. I left a period of re-enacting I was active in for 6 years, in fact more active in that period in the 6 years than I have been active in pirating for the last few years because "governing" bodies, no matter what spin ALWAYS end up being more about egos and personality conflicts than keeping similar standards. The funny thing was, the greatest rifts were formed by myself and others pointing out "board" decisions that were obviously and measurably more about personality conflicts and ego than "enforcing" (or even encouraging) cohesive standards. My rather unpleasant first hand experience and a good deal of second or third hand stories has made rather dogmatic in my belief that reenactment "societies" are essentially a bad idea.

EVERY good event I have ever been to, or really enjoyed was a result of differing groups with different but compatible standards coming together as equals without some governing body to "oversee" it. Heck I have even seen a group formed for strictly insurance purposes and nothing else dissolve into rediculous power struggles. Unfortunately the ugly side of human nature is a far stronger driving force than any "benevolant" governing body is... That unpleasant but true statement is as true if not more so in re-enacting as it is in any other element of life... Which is why I will never involve myself with a "umbrella" org in re-enacting again. I have to suffer that in work, politics, and every other element of my life... I'll be damned before I sign up for it in what is supposed to be my break from the rest if my life.

Good luck to any who care to walk that path, I won't say "I told you so" in the few to handful of years it takes for those situations to finally come to a head.. As I said it before hand. And being that truthful and honest about it, has only ever brought me heartbreak and a good stiff knife in the back.

[hurricane]

the problem would then be, the crew would loose some of its individuality because, well its our rules. and eventually everything would end up being the same, just a different venue.

any thoughts?

Hmmm crews don't really have to lose their individuality because they would still be operating under their own standards as well and be members of the foundation...

the only way pirate crews might lose individuality is if the foundation's standards are not as high as their own or vastly different, or the foundation tries to set all the rules for all their members on how to operate...

such as, there is a disagreement with the standards regarding clothing standards...where one member crew is wearing blends or cottons and another member crew is wearing correct fabrics..or where one crew allows children and another doesn't..bucketboots and fallfront breeches or no bucketboots and fallfront breeches...is the foundation going to step in and try to dictate regarding such specific issues? (Major nightmares!!)

Or are we talking mainly about safety issues, how many events does each member crew need to commit to, and perhaps fringe benefits when and if they are ever available...etc, etc...etc...

Therein lies the problem, at least for a crewe like ours. We already have a set of 14 articles about how the group operates. Some of these will inevitably conflict with the foundation's master set of rules - for example, our group follows my orders, no one else's. It is part of their requirement and is done for their safety as I am ultimately responsible for anything that happens to them.

We have very different rules about handling weapons than some other groups - that's why you don't see us doing fighting... we abhor the very concept of roped off fight circles. I could go on and on.

The long and short of it is that there are always arguments about why someone got a fringe benefit when X or Y didn't and by the very nature of being human, there is always some level of preferential treatment given, even if it is to the hometown team.

For the freebooters, this is easy to go along with. But for the more formalized crewes, it is another layer of management that begs for trouble down the road. Like Michael, I've been there and done that too many times and it never works in the long run.

Far better and far more fun to bring different groups together and let each run as they do - it is also more accurate in regards to how two or more crewes under different captains would operate historically.

-- Hurricane

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm Dutch perhaps you should have yer friends over in the foundation talk to the successful Rev. War unions...such as the BAR, The British Brigade and The Continental Line... they are all still going strong and the BAR has been around since 1962... I am well aware that they have had their ups and downs but they are still making it work and well enough....haven't seen them dissolve yet..

[michaelsbagley]

Hmmm Dutch perhaps you should have yer friends over in the foundation talk to the successful Rev. War unions...such as the BAR, The British Brigade and The Continental Line... they are all still going strong and the BAR has been around since 1962... I am well aware that they have had their ups and downs but they are still making it work and well enough....haven't seen them dissolve yet..

And one only has to go onto any of the non-big player Rev War re-enacting chat boards or discussion groups to hear of how the big players poo-poo independent small militia units, despite from my very limited knowledge of that period, how in fact the militias played a large part in the historic events. Great numbers and a long lifespan do not make a group right, although that is forever the tactic of the bigger groups to try and make people believe so.

Speaking of those larger Rev War groups, anyone have some honest and real stats for their ratios of officers to rank and file? And or what their criteria is for moving up in the ranks? The answers to those questions should speak loud and clear as to why their style doesn't work for pirate re-enacting.

[Dutchman]

well history is written by the victors and then we come along and find information about the loosers that messes up the victors story. so history is reenacted by those who do the research. I certainly don't want a governing body telling me how to do things that work for my group and i would not want to tell others what ot do either. i think an umbrella would be good for insurance and resources, but the crews would definitely need to be individual. thats what makes us all unique. The biggest concern would be over all safety, not who is doing what. as long as all agree to accurately portray what ever it is that they are portraying from boucaneers to jean lafitte. If we loose the insurance over a bonehead oops, we'll not get it back and wont float.

[Hawkyns]

Michael, I'm a member of the Royal Irish Artillery, which is part of the British Brigade. We have our own standards, our own operations manual, and our own chain of command. We determine our promotions and staff level, noone else. The Brigade is useful for 3 things. First, it determines which will be the official BB events for the year. That ensures maximum participation and a good crowd. Second, it provides a uniform set of safety rules, so that we can all play together without people getting hurt. Third, it provides a central clearing house for people to find regiments and see who is close to them and what they do- sort of a universal recruiter. Each regiment maintains it's own standards and it's own website.

Now, I will say that at an official BB event, there is a minimum authenticity standard that you must attain in order to be able to participate. At individual regimental events, that standard reverts to the regiments. Most regiments do carry their own insurance. For the pyrate community, that can be an issue becuase there are not generally enough in any given crew to spread the cost to a doable level. And that insurance is going to become more and more of an issue, since the whole healthcare/liability debate currently going on is going to come down to the sites. They are going to want individual groups to insure themselves, rather than be covered under site insurance. We are already seeing that in some areas. Sites won't pay the additional cost to cover us, and won't take the liability. Each crew is going to be classed as a subcontractor. So if we want to continue firing muskets and cannon, and cutlass fighting, we are going to need some way to cover ourselves, without adding huge amounts of cost to the individual. It ain't nice, it ain't a pyraty attitude, but it is the real world of liability that we have to operate in.

Hawkyns

[Capt. Sterling]

[quote name='michaelsbagley' date='03 October 2009 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1254589809'

And one only has to go onto any of the non-big player Rev War re-enacting chat boards or discussion groups to hear of how the big players poo-poo independent small militia units, despite from my very limited knowledge of that period, how in fact the militias played a large part in the historic events. Great numbers and a long lifespan do not make a group right, although that is forever the tactic of the bigger groups to try and make people believe so.

Speaking of those larger Rev War groups, anyone have some honest and real stats for their ratios of officers to rank and file? And or what their criteria is for moving up in the ranks? The answers to those questions should speak loud and clear as to why their style doesn't work for pirate re-enacting.

Well when we were very much involved with the establishing of the British Brigade, units were a part of the whole but ran their units according to their own choices,...moving up in the ranks remained something that was done within each individual unit, the British Brigade did not dictate such things...

all unit officers would all meet yearly (this included all the active units in the Brigade) ..and we worked as a team...honestly I don't see what the issue is here...the event organizers were often the field commanders at events... horses got more because they required more, artillery got more because they required more, men were provided for and there certainly didn't seem to be as much pissing and moaning as we have going on now with all the bloody ego problems...

also at the time, the Brit. Brigade did not poo-poo the independent units, as when I was involved, they were still being invited to major events...

Edited October 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[michaelsbagley]

Well when we were very much involved with the establishing of the British Brigade, units were a part of the whole but ran their units according to their own choices,...moving up in the ranks remained something that was done within each individual unit, the British Brigade did not dictate such things...

all unit officers would all meet yearly (this included all the active units in the Brigade) ..and we worked as a team...honestly I don't see what the issue is here...the event organizers were often the field commanders at events... horses got more because they required more, artillery got more because they required more, men were provided for and there certainly didn't seem to be as much pissing and moaning as we have going on now with all the bloody ego problems...

also at the time, the Brit. Brigade did not poo-poo the independent units, as when I was involved, they were still being invited to major events...

Pissing and moaning? I see a fair bit of reasonable objection based on different life experiences, but no pissing and moaning. Or is that the first step in starting the politics? Calling the dissenters out and invalidating their opinions as they don't fall into line behind "the grand scheme"?

Form your guild, best of luck to you. Like I said, I don't buy into it... some will, some won't...

Neat tick in editting your post to read my name with your statements!

[Capt. Sterling]

Ah so it is allowed for you to try and invalidate our opinions but we can't point out the things we disagree with on your side of the discussion? Here yet again, because a small group of independent units complain, this automatically makes the larger group wrong? And you admit that you haven't even had any experience with the larger group...

Great numbers and a long lifespan do not make a group right, although that is forever the tactic of the bigger groups to try and make people believe so.

This is pure opinion, and frankly you are entitled to it, but are you truly hearing both sides of the debate? You have already opted out of the issue without even trying to sit down and attempt to make a new thing work, just because you believe from personal, past experiences that it is doomed to fail?

Form your guild, best of luck to you. Like I said, I don't buy into it... some will, some won't.

[Capt. Sterling]

Neat tick in editting your post to read my name with your statements!

I am not allowed to directly respond to you on this forum? But you are allowed to quote me??

Edited October 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[michaelsbagley]

Neat tick in editting your post to read my name with your statements!

I am not allowed to directly respond to you on this forum? But you are allowed to quote me??

Stelring go back and look at post 70 that you made, Here's the link so you can see.

There is a quoted block of text with my name on it that is not anything I said. It appears to be something you ypes, and mistakely editted to contain my name. Or perhaps a partial quote of my statements with some rebuttal from mixed into the quoted area with my name attached. Quote me all you like, just please don't attach my name to something I didn't say.

[Capt. Sterling]

Great... this happened to me the other night as well... its not a trick as you say, its something that is screwing up when I use the quote feature... when I tried to quote Maddogge regarding the kids discussion, it used his name but used what I typed... if you noticed it is an exact copy of what I typed below the so called quote... I have to go back in, scratch the entire post and recapture the quote all over again....

so no trick, I just missed that I didn't print what you said, just assumed that it had worked...

Edited October 3, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

What I was trying to quote/capture was this...from your post

And one only has to go onto any of the non-big player Rev War re-enacting chat boards or discussion groups to hear of how the big players poo-poo independent small militia units, despite from my very limited knowledge of that period, how in fact the militias played a large part in the historic events. Great numbers and a long lifespan do not make a group right, although that is forever the tactic of the bigger groups to try and make people believe so.

Speaking of those larger Rev War groups, anyone have some honest and real stats for their ratios of officers to rank and file? And or what their criteria is for moving up in the ranks? The answers to those questions should speak loud and clear as to why their style doesn't work for pirate re-enacting.

[hurricane]

Well, there's a lot of divergent opinions here.

I think the major thing is, that there are well organized groups that already have there way of doing things and don't want to add layers to it. There are freebooters who like to do their own thing and not answer to anyone, save the event they are at and its organizers. Then there are those who like to belong to something bigger, because it can do many more things than smaller entities, which is true enough.

We're really kind of running around in circles here and I've done my part to stir the pot. But its like arguing who's right - Republicans, Moderates or Democrats -- there's no answer here.

Dutch, it's a good idea you're pursuing this idea. Some of us will love it, some of us will want to change it, some of us will shy away from it. It's just the way we all are. I think it's what makes us all pirates, after all. I don't think many of us would be found marching in a Civil War re-enactment in a line of troops (some yes, I know). But some of us just don't take orders well and we don't assimilate well. We operate on the smaller level and enjoy that freedom.

So, I say -- go at it. See what comes of it, and then we can all make a decision based on what you and your organization come up with. Only then is it really the time to say, Yeah or Nay to the idea. It's just that right now, an idea. So let the idea take shape and become a formal proposal. Who knows, we may all just be amazed and can't wait to sign on the dotted line.

-- Hurricane

[Dutchman]

hey mates. as i stated i don't want to tell any group what to do if they are already doing what works for them. I'm thinking of a way for groups to have resources normally not available to them because of size/ location/ what have you. Those resources include extra manpower from neighboring groups, reference materials, and yes the ever increasingly demanded "I" word. Here is my thought, lets say hurricane and crew are flying to virginia- they need tents, but everything else is covered. I've got two spares and duncan has one. that covers hurricane. hurricane et all are members of the Foundation so they are covered under the insurance for the event. In return the following winter, Hurricane discovers at the last minute half the crew is down with bird flu for an event. he calls up to virginia and we are on the way- he collects his resources on that side to ensure we have the proper clothing because it is set 80 years earlier than what we normally do. Its currently done to some degree between groups and individuals now. CSF, BBC, Vigilant, Devilmen, and Archangel. This just enables us all to have one outlet for help.

[hurricane]

Well said and well presented says......... sorry, just coughed up a piece of pork lodged in my chest from the swine flu - or was it dinner.

Where was I... oh. Wel said and well presented. I think it is a bold plan and am anxious to see how it pans out. As I said, then we can each decide individually or as a group if it meets our needs.

I raise a tankard and say thank ye!

-- Hurricane

[callenish gunner]

Oddly, Pirates are the only type of historical presentation that has both dedicated historical reenactors and fanatical fantasy actors. How many Rev. War or Roman Legion groups, or American Civil War companies are out there wearing total fantasy garb and carrying fantasy weapons....As a whole we "PIRATES" are not a cohesive group dedicated to a concept of accurate historical portrayal; there is a bit of theatrics in what we do. A large part of it stems from what the public expects from popular films over the past century, none of which ever got it accurate to the history( I thought a respected source like National Geographic might have gotten it right but, alas they gave into the stereotype with the Blackbeard film).

We take both sides and pit them against each other and each has their pet names for the others; Polyester Pirates or Renfaire Pirates to the Stitch Nazis and the Wacky-Woolies, the Button-bullies, The Bucket-boots and the Buckle-shoes. We spend so much time to educate or counter-educate the public that the truth has become lost. And the publications out their portraying "us" to the general public are caught up in the sales/marketing game of publishing T&A and passing it off as PYRACY!

To be taken seriously by the Historical Societies or by the public, we as a group, affiliated or not, need to adhere to a standard of presentation which won't occur until there is discourse as to what that standard is to be. Our niche of historical reenactment has for the most part become a self fulfilling punchline for the reenactor jokes( How many Jack Sparrow's or Barbossa's or poorly done Blackbeard's need to show up to an event to make it really successful?)

Yes, I know that even approaching this topic will put off a lot of folks on this forum who love POTC and all the characters portrayed there within that realm of fantasy, and that is how and why they became interested in pyracy. And many who approach this from the museum/historic site perspective will see this as sacrilege to the holy grail of authenticity which few can or are willing to achieve on a weekend hobby basis. Sad thing is I have seen so many so called professionals in the historical arena play into the Hollywood stereotype because they themselves have never delved into the reality of the period life and artifacts. It falls outside their purview of expertise but they want the numbers that the idea of "pirates" generates. But until "we" can put together a flotilla of Cutters, Sloops and Schooners and Barques and Brigantines and Frigates "WE" are just playing at it!

I enjoy the full immersion type of historical reenactment which I had the pleasure of doing at Valley Forge for a month in January1976. We survived in the huts and foraged for food within the national park, besides two sides of bacon and a sack of oats. Challenging oneself to overcome obstacles just as our predecessors had done is a rewarding experience but not for everyone. Are we here and at events for our own fulfillment or the benefit of the public who often pay to view what we do?

Then there is the issue of whose efforts are worth a stipend and whose are not. That becomes another issue for another thread.

[Mission]

I'm a freebooter. I'm here to learn, play with a bunch of cool people and write a book about period pirate surgeons some day. If the public gets to be a part of all that that and enjoy it on some level, even better.

The movie pirate thing will most likely never go away - it's too deeply embedded in the popular cultural mind. Our "national holiday" (so to speak) is evidence of this. Talk Like a Pirate Day essentially means "Arrrr!" This is why I think the establishment of period accuracy needs must fall on the event. If an event doesn't want fantasy pirates, all they have to do is say so. The proof is in the pudding.

[Ransom]

Scary as it is to me to admit it ( ) I agree with Mission. I'm a freebooter. I just don't see how a centralized "board" would do anything but cause problems. Been there, done that, not interested. You also run into the issue of fees. Someone is going to have to pay for said insurance, site fees, etc. Do you charge each group a monthly, quarterly, or yearly fee to participate? Do we then all have to sign new or extra wavers, which we already sign at events now? Can one body of governors take in the interests of so many different styles of participation in pyracy reeanacting? It's a logistic nightmare.

Better to have an event like, say, PIP, where the two camps of pyracy seem to come together with no animosity, have a good time, and leave with a lot of fun memories. It boils down to what each individual event organizer wants — exact history, or a pyrate festival. No central ruling board is going to change that, and if they try, all the local crewes will ignore them and keep on having fun in their own way — like they've been doing all along.

[Kenneth]

In Bakersfield, we have a museum called Pioneer village. The first event we attended was called lamplight tours. Held every January at dark, there are civil war, pioneers and cowboys set up in encampments all around the museum. When they were told pirates were attending, they laughed. During the day as we were there setting up they yelled ARGGGG and Shiver me timbers! I thought to my self maybe they'll lighten up once the event starts. I decided I would walk around and introduce myself and our crew, but with each group I met, I blurted out sterotypes and Movie quotes. They didn't like it. With the cowboys I would repeat "get along little doggy" and ask them where Hoss was. With the civil war guys I asked where Yosimite Sam was and where did they park the General Lee and did they have Daisy Duke hidden somewhere. With the Pioneers I did my worst Little big horn followed up with an Indian war cry. Evening came and we outfitted ourselves and walked around. We became friends with everyone there by actually taking time to understand what they are all about. We all thought it was funny that I was saying sterotypical one liners and I explained that I was doing it to make a point. The point was we wanted to be taken seriously and they automatically started in because they thought we would be in silky pants and have eye patches. They agreed that had never seen Pirate reenactors so they just didn't understand. If you go on reenactor.net you'll find a coming soon section for pirates followed up with the guy telling his friend that yes there are pirate reenactment groups. People just don't know what to expect. I don't know how it is on the right coast, but thats how it is for us out here. The point I'm making is, we strive to be authentic. Our group studies, reads, argues and builds kit after kit trying to prove that there can be good pirate reenactors on the west coast. We are from being perfect and we are all mostly new at this and I think if we ever came to a point where we knew it all and were perfect, I would stop because it wouldn't be fun anymore. We love to have fun and we can at certain events like at Ojai I had an ice cream cone in my hand half the time, but when we have to be taken serious and we are at a historical event, everyone better look the part so we can be good pirate reenactor ambassadors. One thing that puzzles me. I hear people say they have 20 or 30 years in reenacting piracy? How come reenactor magazines and website haven't a clue about it? If so many people have been doing it so long, wouldn't there be more information about pyracy groups??

[michaelsbagley]

I hear people say they have 20 or 30 years in reenacting piracy? How come reenactor magazines and website haven't a clue about it? If so many people have been doing it so long, wouldn't there be more information about pyracy groups??

Don't quote me on this, as I am not one of those.... But I believe there are people who have been re-enacting for 20 or 30 years that are doing pirate now.... I honestly don't think there are many out there that have been doing pirate re-enacting for more than a handful of years. The Pirate Brethren are the oldest I know of (at about 10 or 11 years old), but then I don't know everyone or all stories. Hope this clears that up.

In regards to the cheesie comments from the peanut gallery, I tend to find I get that more from the public than I do re-enactors of other periods. There is the odd re-enactors of a more "old school" era that still gives a sideways glance or questioning comments... But I find those to be fairly much in the minority these days.

[RedJessi]

The other topic that I mentioned wanting to review before posting about has to do withthe idea of creating a centralized/insurable organization.

The trouble with organizations is that they quickly create organizational filters - a process through which all new ideas must pass. This can be formal or informal - formal being submission, regimented procedures, etc; informal being more along the lines of perhaps you mention the idea to a few people of influence first, to get their support, before bringing the idea to the group as a whole. Even in organizations that on the surface seem extremely open to new ways of thinking can have such stringent filters that few ideas get implemented.

Think of it like a funnel - wide open on one end, but so narrow and specifically shaped at the end that only ideas that fit the preconceived mold actually get through.

Now, these filters come from expertise and the more "expert" an organization is, the more filters it is likely to have in place. Unfortunately, this means that while the filters can help the group get a little better at what it is that they already do, they also act of formidable barriers to doing something a whole lot better or completely differently.

The most telling thing about all this is the source from which I pulled it: The Innovation Killer, by Cynthia Barton Rabe.