Why I don't post in TWILL

[LadyBrower]

There is much more to historical reenacting than just putting on the clothes.

Hawkyns

yes'r... I think clothes are the easiest picked apart because they are the first thing you see and easiest to argue over. =P

[RedJessi]

I don't often participate because I don't' know if I am up to the standards of these folks here, but as longs as we can all accommodate some healthy debate then... all is well, is it not?

To sleep — perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub!

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Must give us pause.

I suppose, for myself, I haven't seen much "pausing", or healthy debate for that matter. And if someone like YOU doesn't know if they are up to the "standards of these folks here" - then there is precious little hope for the rest of us grunts.

[Jack Roberts]

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

Cool thing about the wooden shoes. I've heard about them but not researched yet. Please post the info you've found and lets start a new discussion. I would love to know more about them. Because if they were worn often I would probably wear them. Please post what you've found. I'm really interested. Even if I don't wear them, I would love a pair to have on hand to show people.

Referencing the polyester Errol Flynn look comment, to me having a 1770 waistcoat for a 1710 pirate is just as bad. (I'm not trying to be mean here, just stating my opinion.) After studying many period plates and patterns I can see the differences in the cut of the clothes. When I see things out of period it just looks wrong. I guess if your going to do something with any historical accuracy go all the way. It's taken me 3 years to finally get something fairly close. Something I can feel comfortable saying is an accurate representation of what they would have worn back then.

I've found a group of people that feel the same way and I play with them. Doesn't mean I can't play with anyone else cause they have different standards. I'm sure Liam you've found a group that feels the same as you.

I feel, here in Twill, that it's what we are here to do. Nick Pic! Some of us get a kick out of knowing that our seams are correct. Our prickety stitches are on. Not everyone does but that's how some others play.

To Red-Handed Jill;

The can be damned! Open the worms!.... ummmmm, never mind.

What I was trying say was I feel this,Twill, is a safe place to let the worms out and roam free. Trying not to take things personal.

I agree with you that a good portion of reenacting is about replicating the skills involved. I don't have the privilage to learn how to sail. Nor have the space to actually fire live ammunition for target practice. (or even own any weapons to do so. ) Someday I hope to but I can't right now. But I do work on what I can. Such as rope work and thoughts and mind sets of the period.

As to a lot of conversation about the clothes and no actions. For me when I don my kit it feels like I'm jumping back in time. For me wearing a facsimile of period underwear actually helps me to "get into character." Not for everyone but it works for me. I know the Archangels discuss a lot about the skills and mindsets and how to present them. I know of several threads here in Twill discussing plenty of other things besides clothing. Just look down the first 2 pages of the Twill section. It does seem to dominate the conversation cause it the easy thing to point at and correct. Skills and mindsets take time to develop. Heck the whole historical pirate reenacting scene is relativity new.

[Mission]

Just for reference: Wooden Shoes

[René la Gaffe]

As for clothing..........I have to agree with Mr. Roberts and Lady Brower, i dont care about the shape of seems because i want to argue with someone later about it, or use it to down someone elses kit. It honestly matters to me! This is a very self-fulfilling hobby. Most of us do it to make ourselves happy.......and if trying to be accurate is what you want, then go for it........trying for accuracy is something that keeps it interesting, now yyessss theres no way to be entirely accurate, no matter how much research you do. we all make educated guesses(though some more educated then others admittedly) For example, jamestowne settlement here in virginia, isnt so sure now that the settlers flag ship was actually named the Susan Constant (instead it could have been the Sarah Constant), does that mean that they were horribly wrong and were bad researchers, no...they just made their best guess with what they had at the time...which is what patrick did, thus i think you CANand should indeed post in twill . All we have are educated guesses, as long as you use what facts you have, and logic to meet your goals. If i ask its because i want to know how you got there so as to improve my self, or spark new ideas.

As for getting more immersed with the hobby, i vote thats its a grreaattt idea, but not practical for all. Though many would want the skills associated with their persona, they dont always have the greatest means. For me i have tall ships to work on, and quite a few historic sites to interpret at, which helps ALOOOT, but unfortunately many others dont have those options...or simply dont want to...after all...for some this is just a weekend hobby.......

Over all i like twill, because i know that if a topic is there it generally is a serious question, and whether a topic has as much period evedence as another or not, i generally will learn something that will help me make my own interpretation of "what is right" and while everyone has their own opinion....a rev war waistcoat at a 1720 or earlier event is just.....bad....there a certain things that we are pretty sure of.........now if your still working on you kit, be sure to say that......dont stop at the 1780 weskit and dropfronts......sorry for that rant, BUT man that really annoys me.....Cheers mates!

P.S. Thanks for the wooden shoes link..QUITE interesting!

[Liam McMac]

Exactly... if you love to be the person who has everything 'perfect' down to the seams, cut, threads and materials of your clothing, then by all means, be that person. The same goes for camp and participation in reinactment. I also love the research aspect of it and accuracy is a big part of what I do, but I just don't go full bore and that is simply my perogative.

I have nothing gainst the people who do all the research because they have helped me with my research. We all owe a great deal to those who put in that extra effort because without them we would not have this great forum. For example... the wooden shoes topic... I mentioned it and as quick as a gunshot... you had several people offering up documentation.

All I'm saying is that it's best to argue among others who share your hightened passion for it and not look down on others who are not so dedicated.

One Eyed Willie---- Out

[Fox]

The Pyracy Pub has 14 forums, several of which have sub-forums. This is the only part of the whole site that is dedicated to the 'Academic talk' which some enjoy and some don't. Those who don't are heartily advised to get their pirate kicks from one of the other 13 forums.

If J.Bloggs comes here and asks "What is the best way to portray XYZ?" they will get, on the whole, a number of balanced and well researched answers which they can choose to apply to their portrayal or ignore completely, but nobody should take offense that the answers given don't match up to their pre-co0nceived desires.

The reason I almost never post in Twill any more is that I've frankly got fed up with people getting highly offended when they don't get the answer they want. Honestly, if you all want to wear bucket boots I couldn't give a rat's arse. But if you come here and ask whether bucket boots are accurate then don't get upset when you're told 'no'.

The very purpose of this forum is debate.

All I'm saying is that it's best to argue among others who share your hightened passion for it and not look down on others who are not so dedicated.

I don't look down on anybody, and I honestly don't think anyone else does either. Captain Twill is the place set up specifically 'to argue amongst others who share [one's] heightened passion'. If you don't like it, see my first point.

[Jack Roberts]

Liam McMac Icon

Posted Yesterday, 09:42 PM

All I'm saying is that it's best to argue among others who share your hightened passion for it and not look down on others who are not so dedicated.

One Eyed Willie---- Out

Like Foxe said that is what Twill is for. I try very hard not put a Historical standards lens on other areas of the Pub.

Sometimes the threads I start have a Historical slant because that's what I make most of the time. Like Foxe said Twill is the place to argue the living crap out of the details.

I'm sorry you don't post much anymore Foxe. It's good to hear from you though. Glad you still check in from time to time.

[Ransom]

I go to Twill on occasion to see if I can find answers to a question I may have. The rest of the time I find Twill kinda amusing, in a "How can they debate the curve or straightness of a seam for six bloody pages!" If that's what floats their boat, fine by me. I just don't care to get bogged down in the minutia of garb. I'd rather be out having fun in my sorta-kinda historical garb.

What gets up people's nose, I think, is when words like "Elite" are used in conjunction with PC. It implies that the PCers are better than those who don't care if their slops seem is curved or straight, but are merely happy to be wearing slops.

And I must say, that a few of us had a really laughing-good time doing the totally non-PC girly-girl thing at Ojai on Saturday. Yeah, the next day we were back in our kinda-sorta PC garb, but letting go once-and-awhile and being silly is good for everyone, I would think. Keeps things in perspective.

[Hawkyns]

Ransom, I do it for two reasons. First, I really do like to pul things apart until I find out how they work and why they were done that way. Ihave not seen all extant items, so others may have seen something different and it all adds to the bdoy of knowledge. Second, It keeps me busy while I'm waiting to go to a muster or event. If I actually had to live in the 21st century full time, I'd lose what little mind I have left.

Hawkyns

[Kenneth]

When I first joined the pub, I hated twill. Like Foxe stated, I wasn't getting the answer I wanted, I was getting several well studied and debated answers but not the answer I wanted it to be. Now I love reading Twill and I do read it often or go back and search for information when I'm working on a project. With an open mind, I learn. Now I love it...

[RedJessi]

Ransom, that is what I go to the local RenFest for - to wear the fun, totally non-PC pirate gear, complete with reversible upholstry fabric, big brass grommets, high collars and coat tails. Which is just as much fun to me as anything else!

[Fox]

What gets up people's nose, I think, is when words like "Elite" are used in conjunction with PC. It implies that the PCers are better than those who don't care if their slops seem is curved or straight, but are merely happy to be wearing slops.

At the risk of actually getting involved in this discussion, who actually is it that uses words like "elite"? The PCers or the non-PCers? I know I never have described myself as "elite".

[Quartermaster James]

What gets up people's nose, I think, is when words like "Elite" are used in conjunction with PC. It implies that the PCers are better than those who don't care if their slops seem is curved or straight, but are merely happy to be wearing slops.

And what, pray tell, is wrong with that?

In the context of Twill, wherein historical accuracy is the goal, greater accuracy is better and accuracy is determined to the greatest part by documentation. Why then, within this context, should we not consider those making the greatest achievements, be it in material goods or skill sets, our elite?

How does this recognition within our ranks differ that which happens without? From that which happens in the majority of "best pirate" contests held at festivals, parties, and pubs, wherein the most fantastic and gaudy costume is the sure fire winner over anything remotely historically accurate?

Why should those whose passion springs from history not have safe harbor? Why no refuge for the historians?

[blackjohn]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

[Quartermaster James]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

Accepting for the moment, without objection, each and every contingent argument premised in that list, I respond: so?

Let's add to that, just for fun, that every discussion and debate over detail that has taken place in Twill has yielded naught but error: that all has been based on bad documentation, bolstered by supposition and patched with poor reasoning. In short, everyone here all along has been wrong. Still I query: so?

It's not as though we're sitting here in Twill advocating atrocities, genocide, racism, or the subtle details even of 18th century child pornography. At the worst, we're a bunch of overweight self deluded fanatics of our hobby.

My perspective, frankly and for what it is worth (precisely: nothing), is that it is anybody showing any interest in how things may actually have been done that comes under attack. I reiterate my sentiment stated earlier: With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity.

[Hawkyns]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

You, sir, are a heretic. Remind me to shoot you at Lock House.

Hawkyns

[casketchris]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

You, sir, are a heretic. Remind me to shoot you at Lock House.

Hawkyns

quick and to the point . . . i like it

[Ransom]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

I rest my case...

Yes, the term "Elite" has been used several times recently, on the thread concerning philosophy of reenacting.

To answer Quartermaster James...

No one is bashing anyone, and this thread is not about putting down PCers. It is people voicing opinions about why they do or don't post in Twill. I personally don't give a rats ass if you want to be a thread counter, or if you choose to be the 50 gazillionth Jack Sparrow wannabe. There is room for everyone, and no group should feel themselves superior to another. The bloke who takes hours of time to look and act convincingly like Sparrow is probably no less dedicated than the bloke who spends hours pouring over history books to get a sleeve seam right. It appears the only few getting their hackles up here are ones dedicated to PCness...honestly, the rest of us don't really care.

Come on, Quartermaster, calm down. We do this for fun, remember?

[Quartermaster James]

Come on, Quartermaster, calm down. We do this for fun, remember?

Calm down? My dear Ransom, whatever gave you the impression I was agitated?

[hurricane]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

A fun read, thanks for it! :)

I often wonder what our forefathers would think of us, re-enacting their time. Obviously, they didn't have any time to re-enact any period, for their own was hard enough. No time for playing any role or dressing up as any other period when the one you're in is a life and death struggle. Hhm.

I've always thought we're all a bit bored in our modern day world. So we fill our time with hobbies that interest us. These are, after all, just hobbies. Few of us here get paid for our expertise or for even our time re-enacting or performing publically. And the world doesn't change because we put all this effort into "getting it right."

And I always wonder how we would feel if 200 years from now a bunch of re-enactors gather to portray 9/11. Do tragic events soften with age, or is it our own desire to immortalize them in the name of being historical reverent?

This may sound insane to us now, but I think not any more than the survivors and the families of those killed on the battlefield would be aghast at us re-enacting battles of the civil war where tens of thousands were killed or maimed in a day.

-- Hurricane

Edited October 8, 2009 by hurricane

[RedJessi]

Come on, Quartermaster, calm down. We do this for fun, remember?

Calm down? My dear Ransom, whatever gave you the impression I was agitated?

Not for nothing, but I got the exact same impression. Which is ironic, since it is exactly that sort of thing that keeps me from posting in Twill threads.

Annnnd we've come full circle.

[Quartermaster James]

And I always wonder how we would feel if 200 years from now a bunch of re-enactors gather to portray 9/11.

Not meaning to skirt the other issues you raise, which I too ponder and consider, but...

I like the 200 year out scenario. I often use it to explain why the details are important. For example, say 200 years from now reenactors in the future wanted to play "Cold War Cocktail Party, circa 1950 something." Bell bottoms and fringes, although popular only a couple of decades later just wouldn't be appropriate.

Of course my other metaphor involves wearing tie-dyes to a Black & White ball, so it might be considered elitist.

[Quartermaster James]

Annnnd we've come full circle.

As was my intent...

[LadyBrower]

It appears the only few getting their hackles up here are ones dedicated to PCness...honestly, the rest of us don't really care.

Come on, Quartermaster, calm down. We do this for fun, remember?

Well, in defense of the "PC" guys... this was posted in the twill section which directs the pc people to it... If someone posted stuff like that in pirate pop, I think others might take offense? I dunno... The whole conversation is turning into an owie.

Black John- you just like to cause trouble! =P

Hurricane, I've often wondered the same thing... And I wonder, does any of it really matter at all? Why do we (even those who do so inexplicably) care SO much? Obviously those who don't care outweigh those who do... does anyone every really learn anything from history? Or is this all for our own self indulgence? ack.