Why I don't post in TWILL

[LadyBrower]

Wow. I am so not quick enough when I start a reply....

[Quartermaster James]

does anyone every really learn anything from history?

Well, if we're talking about getting involved in a land war in Asia, apparently not.

Or is this all for our own self indulgence? ack.

This is a hobby. It is indulgence. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Hawkyns]

Back in about '87, we went to a time line at the LHA in Vermont. Usual collection of groups, Roman, SCA, ECW, F&I, Rev War and WWII. And one other. Vietnam. Now, this wasn't the normal type of reenactment, where we all play the part of someone from the past, this was a group of VN vets who liked it so much they wanted to keep it going. They had their uniforms, a bunch of their weapons, camp kit etc., and they also had a table full of NVA souvenirs. Some bloodstained. Not to mention a photo album of these guys standing next to NVA bodies.

We asked them to leave.

Now, depending on how you define it, you couldn't get more accurate. Actual equipment, uniforms, the works. Photo documentation, paperwork, anything you could wnat to be 100% authentic. Elite, in that sense of the word. But the attitude was just so far out there, that we couldn't deal with it, or find a way to present this to the public that would be acceptable.

I guess this would be a similar situation to us actually having pirate attitude. Might be fun for us, but the organisers of the event, not to mention the local gens d'armes would definitely get their knickers in a twist. I suppose that is a partial reason why we obess so much over the physical details. Most of us that frequent this forum want to get as close to the originals as we can. Where we are stymied in the actions, we make up for it in the kit.

Hawkyns

[hurricane]

does anyone every really learn anything from history?

Well, if we're talking about getting involved in a land war in Asia, apparently not.

Or is this all for our own self indulgence? ack.

This is a hobby. It is indulgence. There's nothing wrong with that.

But as a hobby we all take it to such an extreme. Sometimes Twill is worse than sitting in a bar during a college football game. This is, in the end, not real life for any of us. I wonder if car collectors get into these tizzies or people who collect stamps? :)

-- Hurricane

[Quartermaster James]

DELETED

[Mission]

Aw, I think Twill is fun but then, as many of you know, I only take most things so seriously. (I do not get the fascination with seams and such, but then it's not the siren that calls me.)

However, I like learning new things. This is really the main place we can do that. (I also like finding the grossest possible descriptions of period surgery and lovingly re-stating them just for you guys, but that's another thing entirely.)

That article is sort of funny and he does get some good (even well-deserved) digs in. Although the comment on historians is very interesting, I have doubts that even peer-reviewed historical material is all that he seems to think it is. I've read some of it in my personal quest for period medical info and even I can refute some of the info in the peer-reviewed articles with the little spit of knowledge I've gathered. We're all human, even the professors. (Besides, what is Twill if not a sort of informal peer review?)

However, that guy is really just (or at least playing at being) a critic. I have little interest in following the work of such people. If you can't tease and make fun of things with a hint of respect and love for it, you're just a cynic. No suggestions are offered for ways people could fix or improve. They're just torn them down one by one (including Dave Barry!) I can't respect a man who'd do that very much.

At least folks re-enacting are making something - he just seems to want to destroy things for his amusement. (I'm sure glad I don't look at the world the way he does.)

“To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day.” -Winston Churchill

[RedJessi]

Annnnd we've come full circle.

As was my intent...

[blackjohn]

Black John- you just like to cause trouble! =P

Think of it more as me being curious about how people think and feel about things.

[blackjohn]

I want to throw some fuel on the fire...

http://wesclark.com/jw/delusion.html

You, sir, are a heretic. Remind me to shoot you at Lock House.

Hawkyns

You may have to wait in a line.

[blackjohn]

“To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day.” -Winston Churchill

Ha! Somehow appropriate given that I chanced upon said article when I did a search on "Vandal reenacting".

[silas thatcher]

i like reading twill because i can find out how things were supposed to be... i don't have enough background to join in on a debate, only my opinions (which comes with ..... not enough background !! )

it gives me something to which to aspire, but alas, may not get there... everything we make comes with improvements over the last one we tried, and i have twill i can refer to from time to time... certain people have a vast background and are a wealth of knowledge to use as reference when frustrated... sometimes figuring things out is satisfying, and some of our garb is kinda close, but is getting better...

it is a big learning process, and inspiring at times... wishing to be as accurate as possible and holding one's crew to those standards ??? elitism ?? nah, don't think so... more along the lines of admirable IMHO...

sometimes you have to separate people's personalities from their intentions, and over any forum, that can be hard to do...

[Jack Roberts]

Well I enjoy trying to relive the past and seeing how people lived long ago. Twill is the place to do that and discuss the finer points of it. What I don't like is when someone comes in and says that we're all idiots and we can't know for sure and you can't tell me how it "really" was. Ok true we might not be 100% correct or overweight or not the right height. That shouldn't deter us from giving it our best shot. Something about living it (or at least trying) helps me to respect where we've come from and gives me greater appreciation for the lifestyle I've been blessed with.

[RedJessi]

If Twill was all about aspiring to understand history, the learn and preserve the skills of the past, or to better arm yourself with knowledge to educate the public, then I doubt this thread would exist.

As such, I have to ask: if that *IS* what it is all about, then why the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down?

[blackjohn]

If Twill was all about aspiring to understand history, the learn and preserve the skills of the past, or to better arm yourself with knowledge to educate the public, then I doubt this thread would exist.

As such, I have to ask: if that *IS* what it is all about, then why the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down?

If you don't mind, would you please be so kind as to produce examples of "the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down" found in Twill.

[RedJessi]

You see, that sort of perfectly illustrates my point.

Attempting to rope me into into pointing fingers and saying THIS person said THIS on such-and-such date, is perpetuating the problem. It's divisive and it's mean. And yet I am somewhat assured that I will get a chorus of eye rolling about how I won't provide "proof" (in order to be debunked of my scurrilous opinion) - as if it were possible to show hurt feelings. And even if I did, what would the response be? I already tried that. Which is why I will give this one example, though I am not copying and pasting the actual posts, nor am I pointing out the poster's name - this is just in the hope that maybe someone will listen and rethink the attitude they use.

I made a post - not unlike this one - saying that maybe these terms you use are off putting because language is open to interpretation - and here are a few examples of ways your words could be interpreted as hurtful by someone outside your circle, despite having non-malicious intent in your usage. I even correlated how it was in way not dissimilar to how I imagine you feel about the term "stitch Nazi" (the usage of which I personally find beyond deplorable).

The response I got was "Actually, no."

Wha-huh? You can't even spend a moment to think that maybe there is the possibility that something you say might be interpreted negatively?

And that is exactly part of the problem. It is how this language and attitude of superiority make others feel with the terms "pollywood", "farbs" and so forth. And further, it is the unwillingness to even listen, much less give credence, to the idea that it is those attitudes that most hurt the hobby you've all dedicated yourselves to. I think it is sad that I feel apprehensive about wearing new kit to an event because I fear I will be spoken to as if I am an idiot since I don't have a three ring binder proving that the pattern of stripes on the linen I've chosen for my stays is accurate. And it is exactly that type of fear that will keep people away.

[blackjohn]

You see, that sort of perfectly illustrates my point.

As an Admin here, my job is to make sure things run smoothly. I personally believe things do run smoothly here. But I want to make sure I'm not deluding myself. Ergo, I was asking you to address specific problems as they occurred inside of actual Twill threads (other than these debate type threads, where we see more headbutting than is usual).

[Quartermaster James]

It appears the only few getting their hackles up here are ones dedicated to PCness

Well, to reiterate: this is the forum for those wishing to discuss "PCness", and this thread started within it seems to be about why people who don't participate here don't like this forum. This thread really seems to be a perfect example of the type of behavior we've all agreed is inappropriate. I don't see how this thread differs from the oft proposed but seldom substantiated scenario of the "stitch nazi" accosting someone with uninvited criticism.

...honestly, the rest of us don't really care.

Which really makes me wonder why this thread even exists?

If Twill was all about aspiring to understand history, the learn and preserve the skills of the past, or to better arm yourself with knowledge to educate the public, then I doubt this thread would exist.

As such, I have to ask: if that *IS* what it is all about, then why the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down?

If you don't mind, would you please be so kind as to produce examples of "the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down" found in Twill.

I second this request. Thank you.

Come on, Quartermaster, calm down. We do this for fun, remember?

Calm down? My dear Ransom, whatever gave you the impression I was agitated?

Not for nothing, but I got the exact same impression. Which is ironic, since it is exactly that sort of thing that keeps me from posting in Twill threads.

Annnnd we've come full circle.

Well, I sort of have to throw my hands in the air here and wonder if I have just entirely lost the capacity to communicate clearly, cogently, and concisely.

[blackjohn]

I think it is sad that I feel apprehensive about wearing new kit to an event because I fear I will be spoken to as if I am an idiot...

I was once at an event with a notorious thread counter. Said notorious thread counter and I were talking, and this is what she said, "you know, people always think I'm going to go over their crap with a fine-toothed comb and be critical of them at events. The truth is, I'm so busy going over my own stuff that I don't have time to be concerned with how anyone else looks at an event, even if I wanted to."

I think people worry too much. Certainly people worry too much about what they believe other people may think.

[RedJessi]

Well, to reiterate: this is the forum for those wishing to discuss "PCness", and this thread started within it seems to be about why people who don't participate here don't like this forum. This thread really seems to be a perfect example of the type of behavior we've all agreed is inappropriate. I don't see how this thread differs from the oft proposed but seldom substantiated scenario of the "stitch nazi" accosting someone with uninvited criticism.

That might be a little bit of projecting perhaps? I've interpreted this thread as being a discussion for the reasons why people don't post in Twill - as the name implies - not why the don't like Twill. Personally, I think Twill is a great idea in one regard, as it does clearly state it is a more academic discussion which to me implies it is a less appropriate venue for the sorts of tomfoolery that other threads can joyously spiral into. But I also think Twill is divisive.

I don't dislike Twill at all. But I do very consciously stay out of posting here because I don't get the feeling that outsiders are listened to or much appreciated. And I hope that my previous post at least illustrates why and that some people just might give the ideas contained therein the respect of having at least plausibility. I am not trying to change anyone's mind or get anyone to agree. But so far, I don't even feel like anything I've said has even been given a modicum of consideration - but has been, instead, dismissed out of hand.

[RedJessi]

I think it is sad that I feel apprehensive about wearing new kit to an event because I fear I will be spoken to as if I am an idiot...

I was once at an event with a notorious thread counter. Said notorious thread counter and I were talking, and this is what she said, "you know, people always think I'm going to go over their crap with a fine-toothed comb and be critical of them at events. The truth is, I'm so busy going over my own stuff that I don't have time to be concerned with how anyone else looks at an event, even if I wanted to."

I think people worry too much. Certainly people worry too much about what they believe other people may think.

Perhaps that is true. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that I, and the others who have stated they don't feel comfortable posting in Twill are projecting personal insecurities or assuming worst case scenarios with a mistaken belief that events are arenas of critical audience.

Then again, some people have posted here, stating that despite their love of PCness, despite their desire to strive to be as authentic as possible, despite how confident they feel that their portrayal is close as they can get with their current knowledge (which they have no intention of not further refining) and despite the fact that they read these threads to be more informed - they don't post here either. That says something to me. Doesn't it speak to you?

Further, while I appreciate your anecdote, I am not sure it applies - as I stated above, there are critical terms in evidence in Twill. Those terms set a precedent for the possible expectation of criticism.

[Mission]

If Twill was all about aspiring to understand history, the learn and preserve the skills of the past, or to better arm yourself with knowledge to educate the public, then I doubt this thread would exist.

As such, I have to ask: if that *IS* what it is all about, then why the insulting language, the condescension and the need to put others down?

Wait a second...given your field of study, you no doubt have read psychology articles and letters back and forth about said article written by researchers in scholarly journals, right? Have you never seen them take shots at each other? Sometimes, direct and very pointed shots? (Sure, it's phrased better, but it's still taking shots at people you disagree with.) Sometimes they spend whole articles tearing apart another scholar's research and/or research methods.

It sort of goes with the territory. While the allegedly scientific- and learning-minded pretend to strive for dispassion, there's always that element of passion hiding in there. In fact, it's sometimes not bothering to hide at all.

[blackjohn]

Perhaps that is true. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that I, and the others who have stated they don't feel comfortable posting in Twill are projecting personal insecurities or assuming worst case scenarios with a mistaken belief that events are arenas of critical audience.

Then again, some people have posted here, stating that despite their love of PCness, despite their desire to strive to be as authentic as possible, despite how confident they feel that their portrayal is close as they can get with their current knowledge (which they have no intention of not further refining) and despite the fact that they read these threads to be more informed - they don't post here either. That says something to me. Doesn't it speak to you?

Further, while I appreciate your anecdote, I am not sure it applies - as I stated above, there are critical terms in evidence in Twill. Those terms set a precedent for the possible expectation of criticism.

"There are a lot of long words in there, Miss. We're naught but humble pirates."

To answer your question, yes, it does speak to me. Hence my anecdote, the point of which is The Notorious Thread Counter isn't as notorious as people believe.

[Commodore Swab]

I find that if you want to discuss English sea farers or pirates or slops that all you really need to do is wade thru all the past topics to find the information you need and most likely that information has been hashed over and over again. Now to me it seems that if you have a question about another aspect or country from the same time frame then most likely all you get is silence and your topic fades into the back ground.

[Hawkyns]

Vintage, a lot of that is because there is not so much information of pyracy from other countries. Certainly not in languages that most of us can read, anyway. Example- I am heavily involved in the Elizabethan fencing world. For years, we have spoken about 4 or 5 sources from outside England, even though there are many. It is only now, 20 plus years after we got involved in this, that some of these other manuals are being translated. If we can't readthem, we can't discuss them.

Jessie- I view this forum in an academic sense. We look at the facts, view the artifacts, and make assumptions. Educated assumptions, backed by a lot of verbage, but assumptions, nonetheless. Have you ever dealt with the academic world of history and archeology? They make our discussions here look like a church picnic. A good friend once opined to me that in the forum, there are a couple of dozen people that are effectively doing experimental archeology on a doctoral level. We have all the standard and non standard sources available, we haunt the museums to see the inside of artifacts, and we wait anxiously for the next scholarly work to be published. That may or may not be true, but it certainly puts our discussions in a different light. And, let it be said, we enjoy those discussions, even when we are pulling apart each others theories. No Twill is not for everyone, especially when we get our teeth into an idea, especially if people have a thin skin. we will answer any question to the best of our ability. But people shouldn't get mad at us when the reality does not meet with their fantasy, and that is when the problems start.

Hawkyns

[LadyBrower]

I think a HUGE problem in ALL online forums is that it is all typed... we lack the face to face or even voice to voice communication which takes away a lot from our ability to entirely understand the messages. Some people I might label as an "asshole" (still not always a bad thing- I call my hubby such all the time) I can have much more normal and civil conversations with in "real" life. And vice versa- (like Michael before coffee :-P).

I think the act of typing sometimes takes away some sort of filter where you think of how it might sound coming out of your mouth, and sometimes you simply cannot be sure what is actually meant. I know I've had to stop myself from getting upset a few times because how I interpret words on a page is not necessarily how the author intended.

BUT I don't think this is restricted to twill... I think people can be snarky anywhere... It's just become a target here because it's the place to be picky about documentation. (which is good)

I dunno... "can't we all just get along?" :-P