Why I don't post in TWILL

[Patrick Hand]

A couple of years ago. I posted "how I made a pair of slops"... but not in TWILL....(kinda fun... some of the Southern California Pyrates showed me their slops made from my post.... dang cool....really really dang cool.....)But I'm not 100% sure they are period correct... just my best guess....

Well the reasoning is simple... Heck... I didn't have the proper "documentation".....(Kass an I still argue about weather the butt seam is curved or straight....)

But I figured they were kinda dang near close.....No JoAnn's to go buy the pattern from......So how would a Sailor make a new pair of trousers/slops/breaches from.... heck not alla them knew how to sew... but it was a standard bit of useful information upon a sailing ship.....So Sailors were NOT Tailors... but they had to make-do....

anyway... TWILL is for the proper documentation.... heck that is what it is for.....

Hey... do we have a single leg covering garment(slops, breaches, trousers...)worn by Sailors from the Golden Age of Pyracy.....that is documented?

Or do we continue to make "educated" guesses..........

(I like TWILL... but there is so much we do not know.... )Some times I grow Tired of having to explain wot I am wearing.... when I can't.... just my best guess.....)

[Red-Handed Jill]

Good on ya, Patt - exactly.

[Ransom]

I hardly ever do either, but am having a grand ol' time in a certain thread, throwing out ideas/opinions, sort-to-speak. It's been fun. (It's that term "elite" that I just couldn't leave alone. LOL )

[blackjohn]

Me either these days. I don't really see the point in it anymore.

[RedJessi]

I think I tend towards your and Mission's way of thinking, Patrick - there there is only so much we can "know" - the rest is our best educated guess. To cage it in any other terms is fooling ourselves, fooling the public and doing a disservice to history. In that way, it's kinda like science - which never finds a theory 100% proven - just strongly supported.

[Commodore Swab]

I have read alot out of twill, going back to the begining (not all topics mind you) and have gained much useful information but have gotten frustrated upon looking at many of the primary sources and realizing that they are far from great and very scarce. Looking at how few there are it is amazing that you can get so particular as to whether or not something is PC. Your "seam" is a perfect example Patrick, we simply don't know and when we have a painting often that is an artists impression and could be spot on or 180 off. I try to take a logical look at what may have been worn. For example if shoes are being made to be as accurate as possible from primary resources and it is found that they are too slippery to walk on a deck or some rocks I would think there is something we are missing.

[Jack Roberts]

That is a difficult thing with this time period. (GAoP) There isn't a lot of "hard" evidence.

Also clothing is in a transitional period. I think Patrick's slops are great and yes a lot of what wear and use as props are an educated guess.

There are actual examples of patterns used from the period. From those and period depictions we can get a feel for the "look" of the times.

I certainly can see a difference between a coat of 1700 to 1720 and 1720 to 1740. But to say,"We can never get it 100% right, why try?" (maybe I'm reading into the subtext to much. I mean no offense.) Discussing weather the "butt seam" (Ha I said butt seam) is straight or curved is part of the fun for me.

Patrick Hand Icon

Posted Today, 12:26 AM

(I like TWILL... but there is so much we do not know.... )Some times I grow Tired of having to explain wot I am wearing.... when I can't.... just my best guess.....)

For asking you to explain what you are wearing and why is a way for me to understand how you came to that conclusion. I would want to know the path you've traveled and what you are using for a basis of your theory. You might have resources that I haven't seen or thought of or a different way/ or experience things with your kit that I haven't yet. I don't usually want to point out what is wring or right with the item in question. Most of the time I want to know what you do and stockpile it with the other stuff I know. That way I can share with others or improve my kit further.

PS I think the butt seam should be curved, the straight one just rides up something terrible.

[casketchris]

i was one of the so cal pirates who made my slops based off of yours i did mine curved for the fact that it fits better (for me) and i think looks better.

i agree twill can be a double edged sword...

[Jack Roberts]

i was one of the so cal pirates who made my slops based off of yours i did mine curved for the fact that it fits better (for me) and i think looks better.

i agree twill can be a double edged sword...

But how else are we supposed the learn and grow? It kinda the point of Twill if you ask me. You just gotta have thick skin and try not to take things personally. Which is tough over the web and with the written word.

[Quartermaster James]

With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity.

Once again I offer Alan Gutchess's A Modest Proposal, this time drawing your attention to paragraph 16.

[blackjohn]

With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity.

Interesting. I didn't get that impression myself.

However, I do believe the conversation here is starting to parallel at least one existing thread.

[Quartermaster James]

Interesting. I didn't get that impression myself.

However, I do believe the conversation here is starting to parallel at least one existing thread.

Well, yes, perhaps the latter does have me more on edge than usual.

[Jack Roberts]

Yep I was thinking the same thing

I feel a merge coming.

[michaelsbagley]

With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity.

Once again I offer Alan Gutchess's A Modest Proposal, this time drawing your attention to paragraph 16.

Nah, to me this is coming off more over people discussing frustrations over how communications in Twill can play out. And the frustrations are well warranted. I feel some of the passions about certain viewpoints on how to interpret the scant information can come off as heavy handed. I know I am probably one of the more guilty parties there. I guess it boils down to some folks want to do a good job (which is admirable in itself), and others pick at the details a lot (which can come off as taking it too far). Bottom line is the re-anctment world will always encompass both types. Those who strive for a good impression, and those who sometimes (or even often) get hung up in particular details (or even all details).

[Liam McMac]

This is a topic on which I have to comment. For the most part.... the only clothing that was ever recorded by writing or by artwork was the clothing of the well-to-do... I.E. the gentry and the wealthy. The dress of common folk was rarely mentioned and rightly so... like the common folk had no need to remember how "common" their clothing was. Therefore it is simple logic that 90% of the clothing ever worn by common folk was never recorded at all and I'm sure that they made their own clothes. In my research I have found that at times, the clothing of common folk did not even come close to resembling clothing that was en vogue.

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

[Jack Roberts]

I know I come into Twill with a different attitude than any other part of the Pub. I come in with an "agree to disagree". I feel this is the place to come and argue the finer historical points of the hobby.

[Liam McMac]

This is a topic on which I have to comment. For the most part.... the only clothing that was ever recorded by writing or by artwork was the clothing of the well-to-do... I.E. the gentry and the wealthy. The dress of common folk was rarely mentioned and rightly so... like the common folk had no need to remember how "common" their clothing was. Therefore it is simple logic that 90% of the clothing ever worn by common folk was never recorded at all and I'm sure that they made their own clothes. In my research I have found that at times, the clothing of common folk did not even come close to resembling clothing that was en vogue.

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

The problem with people getting stuck on clothing being perfectly correct is the lack or variety. Who wants a buck of cookie cutter pirates in the same kit?? If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

[blackjohn]

Bottom line is the re-anctment world will always encompass both types.

QFT!

This, from another forum I look in on from time to time.

As for the Garb Nazis (not my name for them but I have heard it used) you killed REC once, do everyone a favor and keep your opinions to yourself. No one wants to be put down or made to feel that they are stupid for not doing it your way. Helpful criticisms are different than belittling or outright attacks and if you don’t know the difference…please, keep your opinions to yourself.

It must be something in the Autumn air.

[Hawkyns]

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

I wear wooden shoes all the time, especially in the middle of the night or first thing in a morning for a trip to the jakes across the wet grass.

"With all due respect, this appears a thread whose only intent is to disparage reenactors with an interest in authenticity."- Quartermaster James

Agreed, Quartermaster.

Hawkyns

[Jack Roberts]

This is a topic on which I have to comment. For the most part.... the only clothing that was ever recorded by writing or by artwork was the clothing of the well-to-do... I.E. the gentry and the wealthy. The dress of common folk was rarely mentioned and rightly so... like the common folk had no need to remember how "common" their clothing was. Therefore it is simple logic that 90% of the clothing ever worn by common folk was never recorded at all and I'm sure that they made their own clothes. In my research I have found that at times, the clothing of common folk did not even come close to resembling clothing that was en vogue.

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

Well to counter some of your points.

On the surface it seems that that what was only recorded but if you dig a little deeper you will find many examples of common clothing.

Just a few examples:

Gunnister Man

Slightly out of period but close:

Harlots Progress

Criers and Hawkers of London

Also bear in mind that second hand clothing was extremely popular.(even third and fourth hand) Were would this clothing come from? The wealthy and gentry's cast offs. People also tried to mimic the fashions of the time.

More too come gotta run for lunch.

[Lily Alexander]

This is a topic on which I have to comment. For the most part.... the only clothing that was ever recorded by writing or by artwork was the clothing of the well-to-do... I.E. the gentry and the wealthy. The dress of common folk was rarely mentioned and rightly so... like the common folk had no need to remember how "common" their clothing was. Therefore it is simple logic that 90% of the clothing ever worn by common folk was never recorded at all and I'm sure that they made their own clothes. In my research I have found that at times, the clothing of common folk did not even come close to resembling clothing that was en vogue.

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

Here is a resource that you might find helpful. Images of the Outcast, The Urban Poor in the Cries of London by Sean Shesgreen. Plenty of examples of the common folk.

[Red-Handed Jill]

To open a can 'o worms...

I've noticed that most of the put-downs seem to be about garb. Wanting to be accurately is nice, but reenactment encompasses so much more than just dressing properly. I'd venture to say that my kit is, at best, 80% accurate. (I wear wool and linen on the outside, but I've gotta have my cotton undies... ) And two of my guns are cap locks. One of the reasons I'm not at 100% is because I've been too busy with the rest of the piratical reenactment requirements - sailing, firing black powder implementia (and by firing I mean doing more than making loud noises with 'em) and honing my skills with a variety of edged weapons, both theatrical and actual combat (thirty years at this.) And quite a bit of Ransom's and my reenactment time is actually spent on a ship. Patt has spent time learning the actual skills as well, which, from my observation, differentiates him from a lot of other folks who frequent Twill, who seem to mostly argue about how to dress properly (another reason I spend very little time in Twill.) I'm speaking as an observer who tries to live in both the accurate/fantasy reenactment worlds.

[Liam McMac]

Like I said... I am aware of the SMALL amount of documentation for common clothing and again it quite often differs from more well-to-do clothing. Yes of course people liked second hand clothing but not everyone. Nor could everyone afford it.

my whole point here is... do what you feel comfortable with... that includes you

just do it for yourself and worry about YOURSELF only because the firrst order of business... in my opinion... is to have fun. And no one can have fun with someone breathing down their neck or nit picking their clothes.

Unless you see some fools in garb that is WAY out of place... please lets all say someting to them

[Hawkyns]

That is one hell of a can of worms........

Yes, garb is only one facet of what we do. Weaponry- carrying the right piece for the time period. Is it real? Can you actually use it? Camp- can you live period in a canvas tent without modern bed and bedding, without modern camp stove, without modern lighting? Skills- can you do any of the other things that would be required of a seaman or even a landsman of the period? General knowledge- do you know who your king is, who signs your papers, how much is money worth, can you idnetify various types of ships? Mindset- can you think and speak as your persona (probably the hardest of the lot)? There is much more to historical reenacting than just putting on the clothes.

Hawkyns

[LadyBrower]

There were a hundred variances on basic garments, and folks prefered one style over another. I have found documentation of common folk wearing wooden shoes but I doubt many people would make a big deal about that because... who wants to wear wooden shoes?? Although it is a fact.

It's all about preference as long as you don't look like a polyester Errol Flynn in thigh highs with red and black striped MC Hammer pants. If you look the part for the general time period and have correct fabric... who cares how your seams are? Or pockets... or closures.

If you are participating in an acctual historical battle or some event to that effect... then yes, please be as correct as possible.

otherwise.... blah

I care... I care out of curiosity, historical accuracy, wonder-y.... I want to know the hows and the whys. to use the seems, for example- they were flat-felled for good reason- for strength, to prevent unraveling and to make it lay flat. It is logical, there is a reason. It is not arbitrary, and shouldn't be ignored if it is something we know existed and was used- especially for a purpose.

Yeah, there is plenty we don't know and that stuff can be debated and things are constantly being uncovered. Very few things for our period are for certain, but what we can go on can be discussed in twill and thats why I like to read the threads here. There is a lot of information floating around out there and many different ways to view it... I don't often participate because I don't' know if I am up to the standards of these folks here, but as longs as we can all accommodate some healthy debate then... all is well, is it not?

My "interpretation" of this portion of the forum is that it is a place to present research, ask questions and provide (possible answers), discussion and interpretation of factual information based on the material available to the best of our abilities. Is that correct, or no?

Oh and yeah, there is reference for common people's clothing, you just have to look for it and the "stuffs" others have posted already are awesome.