bangstick selection

['Salem Bob']

...regarding the ball-buster point, use your baldrick instead of a belt, or righ a thin leather strap for the purpose, as you see some pictures of Scottish lairds doing, so it is against your chest instead of at your hip.

Then again, the usual tactic is to fire and throw at yer opponent, so ye don't end up busting any of your anatomy.

['Salem Bob']

Good info here about the Canadian company of Loyalist Arms.

I'm considering purchase of a (by necessity) customized/mongrelized left-handed pistol from them (by necessity, because they don't carry left handed sea service pistols as stock items).

This would consist of a left-handed Queen Anne lock installed on a sea service stock/barrel.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasibility of such an item? Do you foresee any ignition problems? 

Capt. William

Captainwilliam,

The Loyalist guns are prototyped by Loyalist and their friends, but are produced in India (Loyalist subjects them to an intensive quality control, unlike many sutlers who only buy in small lots), then shipped to Canada 'in the white', where they undergo inspection and final assembly.

The stocks would already be inlet for a right hand lock - they would have to make a blank stock from scratch and inlet it, which would not be cheap since it is a pain in the neck, and the work would be done here rather than in India.

You can't just throw any lock on any pistol and have it work - you would need to find a left hand lock of the same size as the normal Sea-service lock. L&R makes a number of locks in both left and right hands, and you might find one to work (they run about $99 for a lock, and if the good Indian locks are akin to Ford Escorts (cheap, but reasonably sturdy and reliable), and the Pedesolis are akin to a middleing sedan, the L&R locks are akin in quality to a lincoln or a Caddy.

Were I to go to all the trouble, I'd go for something more like a Private purchase pistol, because the issue pistols never had left hand locks - you would only find them on a better quality gun. It would be just as cheap (or expensive depending on how you looked at it) to get a left handed kit gun, and have a blackpowder gunsmith assemble it for you, as it would to cannabalize one of these Loyalist pistols - you will be doing precisely the same thing, paying a blackpowder gunsmith to put a custom gun together for you. You might as well get one that would look like a higher quality private purchase pistol, as to create an ugly duckling that didn't exist. Your mileage may vary)

Postscript:

to quote myself...

The Loyalist guns are prototyped by Loyalist and their friends, but are produced in India (Loyalist subjects them to an intensive quality control, unlike many sutlers who only buy in small lots),

This is why IMHO it is better to deal with Loyalist, than some of the sutlers who carry identical arms - Loyalist is the creator of the patterns (he is a custom gunsmith who is very competant) for the India made guns he carrys, and deals with them in bulk, and runs a strict quality control - ships straight back to India anything sub-standard. Sutlers who deal with India directly, and only order a few guns at a time, who don't have the relationship Loyalist does with the manufacturers get sent whatever the manufacturer sends them - it can be a crapshoot in quality, and no doubt some of Loyalist rejects that get shipped back to India, get shipped out to sutlers who aren't gunsmiths, and don't have the clout to send them back, or the knowledge to see some flaws. Thats why you can get replacement parts from Loyalist for these guns, if a part should break, but you most often can't get replacements from various sutlers getting them.

[capnwilliam]

Is the external-catch safety of the doglock any the less safe than a true flintlock? What about the flintlock represents an inprovement over the doglock, such that flint replaced dog?

For the matter of safety: does anyone foresee any safety problem firing a right-handed flint hand or shoulder piece left-handed? In view of the fact that the sparks are flying closer to your face?

Capt. William

['Salem Bob']

Is the external-catch safety of the doglock any the less safe than a true flintlock? What about the flintlock represents an inprovement over the doglock, such that flint replaced dog?

For the matter of safety: does anyone foresee any safety problem firing a right-handed flint hand or shoulder piece left-handed? In view of the fact that the sparks are flying closer to your face?

Capt. William

Ahoy CapnWilliam,

Regarding the doglock and it's safety - I have seen it argued that it is much safer than the typical half-cock position on a true flintlock (most certainly so in the case of a service piece). It is more inconvenient to use, needing to be engaged manually. Personally, I would feel safer carrying a doglock on my belt, loaded with ball and the dog engaged, than with a loaded flintlock at half cock.

Regarding the lock handedness - if you use 17th or 18th century technique, extending your arm fully, and placing your side rather than your front to target (as in modern firing posture), then it doesn't matter. It the arm is fully extended, it doesn't matter how you are facing the target really. In example Dragoon holster pistols in most 18th century armies were made and issued in right handed pairs, and the normal foot posture for shooting isn't always possible on horseback (yes when firing to sides, but no when firing ahead - always being aware of your mounts head!) That is pretty much why they stopped producing handed locks for anything but double barrelled fowlers and pistols.

[HarborMaster]

Zorg.., I personally like this one http://www.militaryheritage.com/pistol1.htm

The shorter sea service pistol.,for now to add to my collection., it will come to you without the touchhole drilled

HarborMaster

[capnwilliam]

Very good food (or ammo) for thought, Salem Bob...

OK, I've narrowed it down thus: a RIGHT handed pistol, from Loyalist Arms.

Now: does anyone have any thoughts on their doglock, vs. their sea service pistol?

Capt. William

[Black Deacon]

I like the dog. But it's purely from the fact... I just like it. Both are great locks and shouldn't give you any problems. It's a personal choice thing at this point.

[capnwilliam]

OK; everyone's opinion is being considered, and is much appreciated. And my choice has narrowed further: it's to be a Loyalist Arms, Early British Sea Service pistol, with a conventional right-handed lock.

Two things remain to be decided:

1) since I combine total lack of experience with blackpowder weapons with the mechanical aptitude of a turnip, I would prefer to have it factory drilled. What's the hassle / is there an import fee for bringing it through Customs this way? (I live just a few miles from an international airport, so that's not a problem).

2) are there any relative advantages between a .62 vs.a .64 caliber?

Capt. William

[Deacon Frye]

... 2) are there any relative advantages between a .62 vs.a .64 caliber?

Capt. William

I'm not the best person to answer your question, Cap't William, since I don't have hands-on experience with these, but it seems strange to me that they'd offer the gun in two calibers .02" apart. Perhaps a "one-off (or .02" off) run on the part of their manufacturer? Or a misunderstanding on the part of the person who wrote the copy?

I think you should ask directly about this, and what size ball works best with the pistol.

When you get above .58 caliber, your choices for ready-made balls narrows considerably. Things also become more expensive. And if you invest in equipment to mold you own, you'll want to be sure the gun likes what your mold puts out.

For comparison, 100 .495 cold swaged balls from Hornady cost $9.23. (This would be appropriate for the Pederson "Queen Anne"). They don't produce balls above 58 (.570) caliber.

25 62 caliber (.60) balls from Cabela's, on the other hand, cost &8.49.

At Track of the Wolf, you can get 25 hand cast balls of .60 or .61 actual diameter for $7.50. At .595" diameter, the price goes down to 50 for $8.25.

I guess I'm digressin' a bit here, but my point is if you plan on shooting the piece with ball, you might want to pin them down a bit as to the actual diameter of the bore, and whether there is in fact a variance. I believe .62 is "standard" and equates to 20 gauge.

['Salem Bob']

OK; everyone's opinion is being considered, and is much appreciated. And my choice has narrowed further: it's to be a Loyalist Arms, Early British Sea Service pistol, with a conventional right-handed lock.

Two things remain to be decided:

1) since I combine total lack of experience with blackpowder weapons with the mechanical aptitude of a turnip, I would prefer to have it factory drilled. What's the hassle / is there an import fee for bringing it through Customs this way? (I live just a few miles from an international airport, so that's not a problem).

2) are there any relative advantages between a .62 vs.a .64 caliber?

Capt. William

My shipmates and I have 5 coming next week - as I understand, Loyalist currently only has the .64 in stock - it works well for us, as the pistol that was the model for the particular reproduction happened to be .64 cal. By mid century, the navy settled on .56 as their standard bore (that is the Ordinance board standard pistol caliber).

They can send you the lock seperate from the stock and barrel, in two packages. If you have a drill press, you can easily drill your own touchhole, on *slow* speed (they tell you how). They center punch the mark for touch hole placement for you.

[Zorg]

HActually, havin gotten the dog lock from loyalist (a really nice piece that), they recommend an actual calibre of .60 for the gun, with a normal load of 30 grains (50 as a blank load)

I really like doing business with these folks and will have some proof and firing shots from the range to post soon.

Z :)

[Indigojack]

Ahoy Zorg, Me thinks the Queen Ann from Cherrys has real fine lines, like some flashpackets I've known.

Edited April 15, 2004 by Indigojack

[Hawkyns]

On Wednesday, I'm off to the 18th c Market Fair at Ft. Frederick, MD (Wonderful 18th C shopping for anyone in the neighborhood). I'll be camped there for 4 days and part of the joy of this site is a live fire range. So... I'll be taking the Loyalist blunderbuss and sea service pistol and live firing. I'm thinking a blunderbuss load of about 80 grains of FF with 8-10 .34 balls. Thoughts anyone? Cascabel? Black Deacon?

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

Ifin this be her maiden shoot then please do start gentle her bein' a virgin and all. I would start at 80 with that shot load and work my way up. But I betcha ya be liken it around 95 - 100 grains better. (BSEG)

Not "period" but I 'ave a friend that is "all things expert" about smokeless and 'as several champs under his belt in speed/accuraccy in the SASS world. Give 'em 'is due. He be fast. But NO BP experience. So he goes and askes all the right questions to the all the wrong people. After I found him a grand deal on a .58 Zouave. "$175 never fired) Went with him to shoot it for the first time and he's telling me how it's supposed to be loaded. 60 grains, no wad or patch, using maxies. I just sat back and said'"Realy". He couldn't hit the paper at 50ft. but did hit the target 4 over from where he was aiming. I walked down range and got the target he hit and brought it back to show him the perfect cut through of the maxie as it went through the paper sideways. No expansion "0"! "Well, why didn't it work." "Well, because you wouldn't listen to me or anybody else who's been shooting BP most of their lives but instead refered to all these SASS guys and "the internet" sites YOU like. Now! try this pre-roled .58 charge I brought. Tear the top. Pour. Shove the paper in. Drop in the maxie. Push it down. Now tap it firmly. Cap and shoot. BLAMO! hit the paper. Go figure. "Why did that work?" You didn't have enough compression to expand the Maxi to where it would catch the slight rifling this thing has and shoot straight. Not enough lead in your butt so to speak. 80 grains and a paper wad or cloth patch.