Zorg Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Awright, havin put aside a bit of tin, Im lookin to acquire an new flintlock, and I'd like some input. Should the belov'ed Mad Zorg : A) Go for the Loyalist Arms Jacobian lock (as most of the stuff I do recreation wize is early period) or Go for the English lock (as its more versatile and covers a larger peroid o time or C) Say screw it to the heavy monsters (the Jacobian's are 25" long) and just get a queen anne from whatever source has the best price fer em? Suggestions? Sources? Prices are all about the same. Just wants ta hear yer inputs, mates. Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Deacon Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Which flintlock? That's like saying which motorcycle should I ride. Depends on what style, shape and weight you want to have. If you go to my links page at the Texican Privateers site I have a ton of links to different makers and dealers. I'm partial to the Charliville or Queen Anne. Also depends on what you have to spend. Some of my links go to custom makrs that make to order and run upwards of 3k. Cherry's has some of the best prices. -------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty well preserved piece without an even a kiss your hand, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, smelling of powder, shouting ARRRG!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Bottles Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 What sort of pistols do ye already have? It might be nice to mix it up a little. "The time was when ships passing one another at sea backed their topsails and had a 'gam,' and on parting fired guns; but those good old days have gone. People have hardly time nowadays to speak even on the broad ocean, where news is news, and as for a salute of guns, they cannot afford the powder. There are no poetry-enshrined freighters on the sea now; it is a prosy life when we have no time to bid one another good morning." - Capt. Joshua Slocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 What sort of pistols do ye already have? It might be nice to mix it up a little. At th moment, Ive got the era bracketed. I've a petronel matchlock that I use for the Renaissance period stuff and a caplock for Napoleonic era:) I'm partial to the Charliville or Queen Anne. As am I, but they're both a bit late period fer the reenactment stuffs I do. I think my greater question is: all other things bein equal, would you rather have period or portability. The Queen Anne's are late, but they're pretty and usable, the Dog and English Locks are closer to period, but...well...huge. Given the choice, which would ya pick? Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Bottles Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Gosh, I guess I'd go with English lock. If, for some reason, a large sum of money befalls you, and you feel inclined to spend it on weapons, you can accessorize with a QA or JL, if that floats your boat. But the english lock seem more versatile. "The time was when ships passing one another at sea backed their topsails and had a 'gam,' and on parting fired guns; but those good old days have gone. People have hardly time nowadays to speak even on the broad ocean, where news is news, and as for a salute of guns, they cannot afford the powder. There are no poetry-enshrined freighters on the sea now; it is a prosy life when we have no time to bid one another good morning." - Capt. Joshua Slocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 And as a note, thanks to the Deacon fer the Texican Privateers links site.... http://www.texicanprivateers.com/links.htm VERY nice set o linkages, and you're right about Cherry's having great prices, espcially on the queen anne's Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Deacon Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 As am I, but they're both a bit late period fer the reenactment stuffs I do. I think my greater question is: all other things bein equal, would you rather have period or portability. The Queen Anne's are late, but they're pretty and usable, the Dog and English Locks are closer to period, but...well...huge. Given the choice, which would ya pick? Between the English and the Dog I like the Dog. Just because it's not quite as common. Albion has some nice ones. Though the Snaphance is nice. -------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty well preserved piece without an even a kiss your hand, but to skid across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, smelling of powder, shouting ARRRG!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Though the Snaphance is nice. Aye, an I'd love to have one of em, but there be not a great number available as i kin find below the $800 mark. The Loyalist Arms has an english and a dog lock, both of which look well made, and I seem ta remember someone sayin their stuff was top flight. Anyone have any experience with these lads, gun-wise? My hesitation isnt the $$, its would i be happier goin out to play with one of these monsters or with one of Cherry Arms smaller, cheaper Queen Annes, even if it is after most of the periods I portrays.... Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 For longarms, you would be hard pressed to beat the versatility of a 'Fusil Boucanier', or it's related Club butt fowler. Both have strong maritime connections, and the period of use is mid 17th century to end of the Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 That is a tough question. On the one hand, the Jacobean is a pretty piece, and certainly not commonly seen. It'll do ye from 1640 on, and it's always easier to justify an old piece than one that hasn't been invented yet. On the other hand, 25 inches is awfull large for a hand gun and that'll have a lot of weight to go with it. It was designed as a saddle holster piece for cavalry. So in terms of ease of carry and not getting in the way, the Early English Sea Service may be more to your taste. Me, I don't know which I'd choose, I want 'em both. And as I've said before, I've got a Loyalist brass barrelled blunderbuss. Great piece, works well, parts fit nicely, I'm exceeding happy with it. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkthing Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Now I know that a fine period-piece flintlock would be the ideal thing for a true-to-time reenactor, I've got a question for those of us who are a little less motivated to shell out the dubloons for one of the fine arms noted above. What might your experiences be with the not-so-period flint and percussion lock pistols from less esteemed manufacturers, like CVA and Traditions? I'm looking for an "old-looking" muzzleloader that will go bang with a little charge o' powder, but as a "fantasy" pirate re-enactor I have no need of anything from a particular period. In particular the low price tags of some of the cheaper percussion pistols caught my eye. However, as a newbie to black powder shooting I don't want some dangerous piece o' junk that'll blow up in me face! I am looking for a good strong pistol that I can "learn the ropes" with, and that I won't feel bad about getting dirty or knocked around. I am a gun owner and familiar with the inherent danger of firearms and the safety procedures for modern weapons, but the black powder thing seems a bit more complex. For my piratin' purposes, I'd be perfectly happy with some kind of blank-firin' gun that would give me a bang and a puff of smoke, but I've never seen anything like that in a muzzleloading pistol. So, I'm figurin' a smaller-caliber black powder shooter will do. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 CVA makes a practical piece. My first blunderbuss is a CVA, and I have one of their .50cal longrifles, too. Decent pieces, solid workmanship, good shooters. I've won some competitions with the longrifle, against people with much more expensive pieces. They look 'sorta' right, basic lines and all, but my big complaint is they're *small*. Their standard lock is a small pistol size, even on the long rifle and blunderbuss. The longrifle itself, seems to be sized for the average 12 year old. If you're a person of any size at all, they tend to look like a toy in your hands. For anyone one with long arms, the pull on the longrifle is damned uncomfortable. If you can deal with that, then go for it. Another one you might want to check out is Classic Arms. They have a series of kits in the Dixie catalogue. They're all percussion, and all less than $100.00. If you know how to put a gun together, or can do reasonable woodworking and basic filing/fitting, that migh be an avenue for you. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted January 31, 2004 Author Share Posted January 31, 2004 On the loyalist arms front, I must admit to a bit o confusion on their ordering status. Apparently completely functional flintlocks get held up at the border sometimes (?). I remember reading someon....mightv been you Hawkins......getting a piece with an unbored touchhole. They also offer to ship the lock and the stock and barrel separately. Anyone have any experience with this? As paranoid as this country has gotten, I half expect to get a visit from the Men in Black for ordering a sack of flints.... Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 Awright, so I'll get BOTH of em......I swan, you guys'll bankrupt me oi Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Bottles Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 That's the way to do it, mate. Go for it all, and grab all the gusto you can get. "The time was when ships passing one another at sea backed their topsails and had a 'gam,' and on parting fired guns; but those good old days have gone. People have hardly time nowadays to speak even on the broad ocean, where news is news, and as for a salute of guns, they cannot afford the powder. There are no poetry-enshrined freighters on the sea now; it is a prosy life when we have no time to bid one another good morning." - Capt. Joshua Slocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 ...It'll do ye from 1640 on, and it's always easier to justify an old piece than one that hasn't been invented yet.On the other hand, 25 inches is awfull large for a hand gun and that'll have a lot of weight to go with it. It was designed as a saddle holster piece for cavalry. So in terms of ease of carry and not getting in the way, the Early English Sea Service may be more to your taste. Me, I don't know which I'd choose, I want 'em both. And as I've said before, I've got a Loyalist brass barrelled blunderbuss. Great piece, works well, parts fit nicely, I'm exceeding happy with it. Hawkyns I don't know about that Hawkyns, The screw barrel is a mid 17th century invention, and the true flintlock dates to 1615 at the latest (possibly as early as 1597). What makes that particular piece early 18th century rather than Restoration era is the comb of the butt - were it shaped more like a holter pistol of the late 17th century, it would work as early as the 1660's (I'd add a third side-screw for good measure) Regarding the holster pistol, it isn't as hefty as it sounds, and the design balances well. For naval use add a belt hook, which Loyalist offers to do for a very minimal charge (something like $15 US) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 On the loyalist arms front, I must admit to a bit o confusion on their ordering status. Apparently completely functional flintlocks get held up at the border sometimes (?). I remember reading someon....mightv been you Hawkins......getting a piece with an unbored touchhole. They also offer to ship the lock and the stock and barrel separately.Anyone have any experience with this? As paranoid as this country has gotten, I half expect to get a visit from the Men in Black for ordering a sack of flints.... Ahoy Zorg, Flintlocks entire and fireable don't really get held up at the border, what happens is they must pass through customs at an international airport (usually), and you would have to go and pick them up. Depending on how far away you are from said airport makes the difference between a hassle and a worthwhile option. What loyalist can do is either ship them through regular parcel post, with the lockplate off of the pistol, in a seperate package, or they can ship the pistol entire, without touch hole drilled (but pre-marked). The first option anybody can assemble, unless they aren't competant to put a screw into a pre-drilled hole. The second requires a gunsmith with a drillpress willing to do the job - he must then proof the gun as well. My crew and I are just finishing up a large order for Early Sea-Service pistols, and as we have a competant blackpowder gunsmith in the group, we are having him drill and proof them. Individuals in our group have gotten his products with the lockplate seperate before, with no problems whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 I don't know about that Hawkyns, The screw barrel is a mid 17th century invention, and the true flintlock dates to 1615 at the latest (possibly as early as 1597) Salem Bob, Im curious if yr countin snaphaunces and english locks as "true flintlocks"? I've read some writers that place the snaphaunce in Germany as early as 1550 and think the "Jacobian" lock may actually have sneaked in as early as 1584...... Thank ye for the info on loyalist. Ill go with the detached lock option, methinks. z :) :) Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I don't know about that Hawkyns, The screw barrel is a mid 17th century invention, and the true flintlock dates to 1615 at the latest (possibly as early as 1597) Salem Bob, Im curious if yr countin snaphaunces and english locks as "true flintlocks"? I've read some writers that place the snaphaunce in Germany as early as 1550 and think the "Jacobian" lock may actually have sneaked in as early as 1584...... Thank ye for the info on loyalist. Ill go with the detached lock option, methinks. z :) :) Hi Zorg, Nope, I'm refering to proper flintlocks, not snaphaunces or English locks. French gunsmith invented them between 1597 and 1615, If I can remember his name, I'll jot it down for you. You can push back the date on snaphaunces an English locks a few decades as well - wheelocks as well (a sketch of a functional wheelock is in a Da Vinci sketchbook dating between 1487-95, and it is in the opinion of experts a sketch of an observed object, rather than his more detailed 'inventions'. The earliest mechanical lock is the "Monks gun", which from it;s form is possibly as early as 1450.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Frye Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 ... as we have a competant blackpowder gunsmith in the group, we are having him drill and proof them. ... Bob, can you shed a little light on how he proofs them? I'm thinking particularly of how to put a bit of distance between oneself and the piece being fired. And thanks for the info regarding the shipping of the guns proofed and drilled direct with the locks coming separately. It wasn't clear to me that this was one of the options when I last visited the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I don't know about that Hawkyns, The screw barrel is a mid 17th century invention, and the true flintlock dates to 1615 at the latest (possibly as early as 1597). What makes that particular piece early 18th century rather than Restoration era is the comb of the butt - were it shaped more like a holter pistol of the late 17th century, it would work as early as the 1660's (I'd add a third side-screw for good measure) Regarding the holster pistol, it isn't as hefty as it sounds, and the design balances well. For naval use add a belt hook, which Loyalist offers to do for a very minimal charge (something like $15 US) I'm not sure we're talking about the same pieces. I'm referring to the English doglock cav pistol, and the Early English Sea Service. Neither one of those is a screw barrel. The doglock is definitely dateable to the period of the ECW and the SS has a first pattern date of 1718, with the next major pattern difference occuring in 1756. For the belt hook idea, I have a dog lock pistol with a 14" barrel. Lovely piece, well balanced, shoots nicely. Hang it on a belt hook and it becomes a bloody great ball buster. I have damn near unmanned myself running with that thing swinging from my belt. I hate to think what a larger, heavier piece would do. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 For the belt hook idea, I have a dog lock pistol with a 14" barrel. Lovely piece, well balanced, shoots nicely. Hang it on a belt hook and it becomes a bloody great ball buster. I have damn near unmanned myself running with that thing swinging from my belt. I hate to think what a larger, heavier piece would do. Hmmm. Perhaps I should have em bronzed Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorg Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 That's the way to do it, mate. Go for it all, and grab all the gusto you can get. So if somone will just loan me $500 worth o gusto..... Drop a kitten six feet, and she grins... Drop an elephant six feet, and ya gots yerself a mess ta clean up.... Sometimes bein' the biggest and most powerful is the LAST thing you wanna be..... Mad Ozymandias Zorg the Unsnottered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Good info here about the Canadian company of Loyalist Arms. I'm considering purchase of a (by necessity) customized/mongrelized left-handed pistol from them (by necessity, because they don't carry left handed sea service pistols as stock items). This would consist of a left-handed Queen Anne lock installed on a sea service stock/barrel. Does anyone have any thoughts about the feasibility of such an item? Do you foresee any ignition problems? Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Salem Bob' Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I don't know about that Hawkyns, The screw barrel is a mid 17th century invention, and the true flintlock dates to 1615 at the latest (possibly as early as 1597). What makes that particular piece early 18th century rather than Restoration era is the comb of the butt - were it shaped more like a holter pistol of the late 17th century, it would work as early as the 1660's (I'd add a third side-screw for good measure) Regarding the holster pistol, it isn't as hefty as it sounds, and the design balances well. For naval use add a belt hook, which Loyalist offers to do for a very minimal charge (something like $15 US) I'm not sure we're talking about the same pieces. I'm referring to the English doglock cav pistol, and the Early English Sea Service. Neither one of those is a screw barrel. The doglock is definitely dateable to the period of the ECW and the SS has a first pattern date of 1718, with the next major pattern difference occuring in 1756. For the belt hook idea, I have a dog lock pistol with a 14" barrel. Lovely piece, well balanced, shoots nicely. Hang it on a belt hook and it becomes a bloody great ball buster. I have damn near unmanned myself running with that thing swinging from my belt. I hate to think what a larger, heavier piece would do. Hawkyns My Bad, Hawkyns. Someone had posted a picture of the English lock alongside the Pedersoli Queen Anne turnbarrel. As an aside though, the basic pattern of the Sea Service pistol, in essence identical up until a minor lock pattern change in 1752, first appears in the reign of James II. That early pistol is virtually identical to the sea service pistol Loyalist carrys , save for the 'ears' on the butcap - file the ears off flat, even with the rest of the buttcap, and you have a James II 'dragoon' pistol circa 1687 (save of course for the stamping on the lock. Thats the nice thing about British firearms, they are so conservative in form, getting 100 or 150 years of use out of a type, before abandoning it altogether. Here is an earlier pistol that Loyalist just started to carrym, with a doglock, that will work from Charles II up til the end of Queen Annes reign (and much later in the colonies, or for scavangers like pirates) Doglock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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