Philosophy of Authenticity

[Hawkyns]

The point being that you don't have to have 10+ years experience to have a sensible head on your shoulders and you don't have to have known/witnessed/heard of a guy who lost a limb to comprehend the dangers of firing a weapon.

No, but experience counts, just like in any shooting sport. I would not take a crew that has not worked together before to the line. I add new people one at a time to experienced crews. It's fine until the battery is crashing around you and you can't tell which captain is yelling command, and you can't see more than 20 feet ahead, and then the adrenaline kicks in. It's easy to get confused and to get ahead of yourself and miss steps. Prime a piece before it is pricked. Load a cartridge with the nipple in instead of out. Don't seat a cartridge fully. Seen all that and more stuff besides. It's not when things are going well that you need the experience, it's when things go buggered up in a hurry.

Just in case you guys didn't see this from the other thread.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/10/02/news/local/doc4ac659bec8abb651820875.txt

Hawkyns

[Cap'n Black Jack]

This is an old argument. I am on a lot of on-line message boards, etc., and this argument always goes on ,and on and on.

No on can be 100% accurate. First it is impossible because we do not have all the answers. I am currently getting my teaching degree so I can put my history to work as a history teacher instead of working my crappy job and trying write books in my sparetime. From everything I have learned and studied over the bast twenty some on years I know there are still unanswered questions. I go by the rule of 90% - knowledge, look, speak, etc. if you have that you more or less an expert. Most people only have about 50%. They look good, some of there gear is questionable, they have basic knowledge )enough to give a good presentation), and they can speak relatively in time period. Over time these 50%ers will gain more experience and get better, its a natural progression.

I have been involved in reenactment and living history for 20 years or so. When I started out I was all wrong, not even 50%. BUT I got help from other reenactors and got much better. Today I still have a problem with the language of the 18th century. Speaking correctly in the correct time period is the hardest thing for me, but I get better year after year.

We need to allow newbies to make mistakes and help them out, and not just newbies. I have seen guys out on the field who have been doing this for 30 years or longer and they still have inaccuracies in their kits. I just don't think it can be avoided. Just give people a chance an help them correct their mistakes, it is the only way to get young blood into this. I'm pushing 40 and at some events I am the youngest person there!

Now I did not have time to read allof the responces out there, so if someone already said all this...thank you.

[Mission]

I go by the rule of 90% - knowledge, look, speak, etc. if you have that you more or less an expert.

I'd be surprised if it's more than 60% myself. There is so much modern taint in our being that I seriously doubt we can shake it, even when seriously trying to pretend to be authentic.

People today don't think like someone living in the time, society, conditions and politics of 300 years ago so I doubt we can get close to the language, postures and attitudes that affect the way we present ourselves, even as (re-en)actors. Sure, we can put some of this stuff on, but it's like putting on a coat. Beneath the layer of cloth, you're still the same person.

We may even be widely missing the mark by relying on the materials we have. Keep in mind that the documents we rely on were written by people intelligent enough to write. Many of those we portray were not able to write and may have spoken, acted and behaved in very different ways than the writers.

[Cap'n Black Jack]

I go by the rule of 90% - knowledge, look, speak, etc. if you have that you more or less an expert.

People today don't think like someone living in the time, society, conditions and politics of 300 years ago so I doubt we can get close to the language, postures and attitudes that affect the way we present ourselves, even as (re-en)actors. Sure, we can put some of this stuff on, but it's like putting on a coat. Beneath the layer of cloth, you're still the same person.

There is the rub! Trying to forget all you know about the modern world and think like it is the 18th century is extremely difficult. It takes years of practice just to get it somewhat right.

[Mission]

Oh, and let's not forget modern medicine and diet and their impact on us.

“It is difficult for us, nurslings of a soft age, to put ourselves in the old sailor-man’s place; to picture the life and turn of mind and thought of these unlettered fighters, starving or subsisting for weeks together on rotten meat and rum, flogged with a rope’s end at a tyrant captain’s whim, sore and bloated with scurvy and syphilis, scabrous with lice and the itch. The natural recourse of such men’s minds was drink, for that made merry men of poor tortured beasts. To see other suffer cannot have affected them that much, for what did they not continually suffer themselves; to see others die (how often had not they seen their own shipmates die?) of wanton cruelty, starvation, hardships and disease.” (Leo Eloesser, "Pirate and Buccaneer Doctors" Annals of Medical History, Vol. 8 p. 52)

“Many conditions would have caused itching, including eczema, impetigo, ‘psorophthalmy’ (eyebrow dandruff), scabies, chilblains, chapped and rough skin, ‘tetters’ (spots and sores), ‘black morphew’ (leprous or scurvy skin) and ringworm. Few citizens enjoyed smooth unblemished skin. Cuts and grazes could lead to ugly and uncomfortable scabbing and unattractive scarring. In this pre-antibiotic era, skin eruptions in the forms of bulging pustules, lesions, acne and gout-induced ulcers could all have become infected, causing chronic wounds.’” (Emily Cockayne, Hubbub: Filth, Noise and Stench in England, 1600-1770, p. 54)

"And I was always thinking that beggars had a far better life of it and lived better than I did for they seldom missed of their bellies full of better victuals than we could get: and also at night to lie quiet and out of danger in a good barn full of straw, nobody disturbing them, and might lie as long as they pleased; but it was quite contrary with us, for we seldom in a month got our bellyful of victuals, and that of such salt as many beggars would think scorn to eat; and at night when we went to take our rest, we were not to lie still above four hours; and many times when it blew hard were not sure to lie one hour, yea, often (we) were called up before we had slept half an hour and forced to go up into the maintop or foretop to take in our topsails, half awake and half asleep, with one shoe on and the other off, not having time to put it on; always sleeping in our clothes for readiness; and in stormy weather, when the ship rolled and tumbled as though some great millstone were rolling up one hill and down another, we had much ado to hold ourselves fast by the small ropes from falling by the board; and being gotten up into the tops, there we must haul and pull to make fast the sail, seeing nothing but air above us and water beneath us, and that so raging as though every wave would make a grave for us; and many times so dark that we could not see one another, and blowing so hard that we could not hear one another speak, being close to one another; and thundering and lightening as though Heaven and earth would come together, it being usual in those countries, with showers of rain so hard that it will wet a man ‘dunge wet’ before he can go the length of the ship.” (Edward Barlow, Barlow’s Journal of his Life at Sea in King’s Ships, East and West Indiamen & Other Merchantman From 1659 to 1703, Volume I, 1659-1677, p. 59-60)

“Humans generally cope. People often get used to difficult situations or unpleasant experiences and no longer notice or comment on them. Those born into the roar and filth of the city would have become acclimatised to it during their childhood. Incomers gradually become habituated to the hustle and bustle of the urban environment. Bodies got used to their immediate surroundings in time – they became accustomed to particular tastes and smells…” (Cockayne, p. 241)

[Pirate Petee]

Ahh, I love the smell of a good debate in the morning. Authenticity should be left to the individual, they should be able to back up their kit if they claim it. I mean there is period correct and then there is period accurate, if all of us striving to be authentic were only allowed to use in our kit what we saw in museums and in pictures it leaves the imagination a little wanting.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Pirate Petee

[Guest]

often (we) were called up before we had slept half an hour and forced to go up into the maintop or foretop to take in our topsails, half awake and half asleep, with one shoe on and the other off, not having time to put it on; always sleeping in our clothes for readiness;

Hey... look... a reference to Sailors wearing shoes........

[Mission]

I actually wondered about the 'shoes' comment when I saw it because I know there have been discussions about this. One caveat with Barlow's Journal is that it was discovered in the 1900s and 'transcribed' by Basil Lubbock in 1934 into a 2 volume set of books. He modified all the words to their (then) modern spellings. I have seen photos of the original journal pages and he seems to have done a pretty good job from the little I've seen, going out of his way to note particularly interesting words and spellings in footnote form. I doubt he would have screwed up a comment about shoes in any case.

Actually, this is my favorite period journal of all the ones I have read. The writing, wording and style inspired me to write a story, which I posted in the Fiction Forum under my fifth user name...one that doesn't have my sig on it.

[Pirate Petee]

often (we) were called up before we had slept half an hour and forced to go up into the maintop or foretop to take in our topsails, half awake and half asleep, with one shoe on and the other off, not having time to put it on; always sleeping in our clothes for readiness;

Hey... look... a reference to Sailors wearing shoes........

At least ah shoe. So now you only get to wear one. LOL

Edited October 24, 2009 by Pirate Petee

[Badger]

A lot o' very good points throughout this topic... Speakin' as a "graybeard" (I've been doin' a period-accurate, late 10th century hiberno-norse jarl fer upwards of a decade, now) who is also a relative newby ta pirate fun, I will say that I agree that it be imperative to encourage us 'greenies' ta higher efforts, gently point out our mistakes (most o' us BURN tae be correct), an' not attack us fer our faults. Speakin' only fer myself, I know that I am always fascinated to learn o' any way I can improve my period accuracy, an' am always workin' ta' do so. At the same time, I am there to have fun, an' jerks who RIP you are not it. I have numerous friends who I have tried to bring in to the 'renculture' who were daunted an' driven off by this attitude. That being said, I agree completely that there be a huge difference between 'living history' an' 'funfaires', an' would not show up 'dressed', all half-baked as I am, to a historical. It sounds tae me as if all o' ye MOSTLY agree on these things, or slight variences o' them, which is one of many reasons I think I am going ta' love this 'site. Props ta the folk o' the Ojai 'faire, they have th' LOWEST proportion o' jerks an' 'faire-nazi's' I have encountered yet. Not tae disrespect ye other fine folks I hae not yet met!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Wow...

I haven't been a regular poster here in months... and the first time i check it out I see there is an authenticity thread going... again.

Those who have been on this forum awhile will already know where my personal kit allegiances are, but I think that realistically, "Pirate" re-enacting has the "system" already licked, without realizing it.

With Pirate you have:

Pure Fantasy

Attempted Historical

The in-Betweens

That is a perfect set up if you ask me. The historical group can have their own camp and do their historical thing when needed/required.

Folks that got into it for fun, still have a place to call home, and can see what is going on and decided if they want to become more historical (and become in-betweeners en-route), or just enjoy the craziness as is.

I have been at it for awhile, and have decided that we just all have to get along and enjoy the diversity. We can't be the patron saint of re-enacting and force our will on anybody. If "historical" is you bag, those that are into the history will gravitate towards you, unless you are a prick. Lead by example, and be a good person to all.

Think about it... Yes, its cool to have times when you get that "time travel" feeling by being historical..

yeah, I am into that. But when the historical "gig" is over, isn't it fun to drink RUM PUNCH with Jack Sparrow Sing Bawdy songs written 200 years after the Golden Age, and have a drunk belly dancer fall in your lap?

Its all good... just do your own thing (whatever it is) well.

GoF

Edited October 31, 2009 by Gentleman of Fortune

[blackjohn]

An interesting article...

http://www.levantia.com.au/theory/rescue.html

Btw, Happy Birthday Greg!

[Mission]

Well stated, sir! I really wish we could meet - we share the same sentiments on this issue. Too bad you are so far away.

Nice category descriptions. Your in-Betweens are often people in transition so I'm not sure that they are a well defined category, but OTOH it makes a good point about the hobby.

When I was dredging through archives looking for thread for The Shipyard forum (check it out, it's cool), I saw this topic come up regularly - say every 6 months or year. But new posters replace old regulars in a forum every few months and it's sort of cool to capture the attitude of the current regulars.

[hurricane]

As usual, GoF, you are a many of clear reason. This is the crux of the matter. We can all enjoy each aspect of our vocation. I for one have never turned down a belly dancer or even the fruitiest of supposedly "period rum punch." It's all good in my book. And actually, it's fun to play the different sides - tonight's Halloween party - authentic dress with a decidedly non-politically correct Huricane at the helm. Viva la difference!

-- Hurricane

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

GoF!!!! Good to see you here, thought you'd sailed off the edge of the mapp or got et by one of them monsters on the chart! Happy B-day!

Now, back to my cave.

Bo

[Badger]

Aye, that about sums 'er up, Gentleman O' Fortune! Wenches, Rum, an' Jack Sparrow ahoy!