Philosophy of Authenticity

[blackjohn]

actually i believe that was the original tangent post subject..(before the tangents tangent about the issurance thang spun outta control)...was...should there be a centralised...standard for Authenticity..

question is still on the floor i believe

thank you for your support,

Pyrate King

Exactly.

Funny thing is, at this point I don't even remember what thread this was split out of!

My two bits... yes, philosophizin' about authenticity is good!

As for the umbrella group and insurance thing, well... I get to use on of my favorite quotes! "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

[Jack Roberts]

Well what a fabulous thread. I've had fun reading it. I just hope my reply doesn't bring the intelligence down.

I feel the bane (actually more like the, fun) of this particular time period is that we are trying to find something to reference "an Authenticity Standard" too.

I think some basics could be determined but others are still open to interpretation. We just don't have enough reference material to prove something one way or another.

Perhaps as a group we could discuss what we feel is Acceptable, In Question, or Not Possible. Or maybe that is too much. I think it would inspire some great discussion and some re visiting some old ideas and theories. I think we as a group would handle something like that. Heck look at this thread, we are still friends.... right??

Hello???

Oh dang I think I just got pushed to the outgroup...

[Hawkyns]

Standards for authenticity are going to vary by what the focus of the group or individual are. If, like me, you are interested in hardcore living history and museum standard, then you take your documentation from extant items, primary source documents, and paintings of the period. If your focus is street theater to entertain the punters, then you are probably going to go with the image of pirates from popular culture. If you are just out for a good time for yourself, and have no need to please anyone else, your standard will be whatever the hell you want it to be.

The insurance issue is getting a bit twisted. It should not be linked with kit standards, because they are variable, as stated above. I would say that it should be linked with a safety standard for blackpowder and for swordplay. One of the frustrating things that I find is that when I go to various events, I'd love to cross blades with some of the other folk there. Problem is, we're so damned insular that no two groups are playing the same game, using the same type of weapons, or having the same goal. A set safety and practice document could put us all on the same page and enable us to play with each otherwithout killing or maiming each other, at the same time that it gives us cover. Blackpowder is even worse. I've been owning and firing cannon for 25 years. Pyrates are, without exception, the worst at drill and safety that I've ever seen. No standard drill, no standard safety protocols, no way for two crews to work a line and be doing the same thing. I've known two gunners who lost their hands in accidents. I've heard rumours of other accidents in recent pyrate history. I've had to shut down lines when crews showed up without enough people, gun tools, or safety equipment. This is the sort of standard that should be worked into an umbrella organisation. It lets us know who is safe to play with and who isn't, and lets venues know which groups will put on a safe show.

Hawkyns

[Jack Roberts]

I guess I'm assuming that when we say "Standards of Authenticity" we are speaking of historical basis for the standards. I would use a different term for those that are more of a Hollywood impression. Along with the assumption that we are speaking of GAoP. (Roughly 1680 - 1720)

Some the basics I'm thinking of are things like Linen shirts, wool and linen as primary fabrics, no fall front breeches, no bucket boots. Stuff like that. It could even extend to camp tools and props used. If saying no is too much perhaps we could discuss a list of stuff that is acceptable and not mention the "no's". As always this list would be subject to change as we find new information.

[hurricane]

Pyrates are, without exception, the worst at drill and safety that I've ever seen. No standard drill, no standard safety protocols, no way for two crews to work a line and be doing the same thing. I've known two gunners who lost their hands in accidents. I've heard rumours of other accidents in recent pyrate history. I've had to shut down lines when crews showed up without enough people, gun tools, or safety equipment. This is the sort of standard that should be worked into an umbrella organisation. It lets us know who is safe to play with and who isn't, and lets venues know which groups will put on a safe show.

Boy, is PiP going to make you crazy, Hawkyns. :) Some of the crewes receive training the day before they're on the line. And I don't think there are a lot of exacting standards - the Viceroy (and Harry up until this year) handled everything at the fort. Don't know who was out with the field pieces.

Clothing standards create a vanilla experience for the public and absolute accuracy doesn't always educate. Look at poor Patrick. When he does his dead on buccaneer look no one knows what it is, even GAoP re-enactors. Add in the cultural differences, improvisations of dress made necessary by the lack of resources or the fact that pirates often just took what they could off of a dead shipmate, and you have no standards, outside of the very basic ones, which are really pointless, since no re-enactor person worth his salt would not wear these things.

As far a the street performer standards that were alluded to here, our clients would never seek the advice of any umbrella organization as to our safety record, abilities or whatnot. We make a pitch (a marketing one) and the client contracts with us based on the pitch. We are responsible for our own actions. We don't have liability insurance for many of these events. And to scare some of you again -- we let little kids hold a cutlass (a non sharp one) and try to lift one of our doglocks. We have never in 26 years had a problem, because we police ourselves with our own rules. They are rules that work for us and may not work for anyone else.

To adopt a different set of standards is not in the cards for our group. We don't want to create confusion as in, "oh, this is this event - we have different rules today... now what were they?"

Again, we're probably the exception here. We have worked with museums, we have done public performance, we can do re-enactment pretty spot on, we do crazy events in other countries which violate probably anyone's idea of standards here, and we have a lot of fun doing i. And I go back to -- it has to be FUN or why else do it?

-- Hurricane

Edited October 6, 2009 by hurricane

[Mission]

Ok, I have split the umbrella organization posts into their own thread. The umbrella/insurance issue and the authenticity issue are materially different so I believe the umbrella org. topic deserves its own thread.

I had to make some judgment calls, so if you see a post in here that you think belongs over there or vice versa, shoot me a pm and I'll move it.

"Sorry about the mess."

[Hawkyns]

Yeah, I know Hurricane. I'm already considering getting a prozac drip for the week . The clothing issue is what it is. Two years ago at MDRF we had, on the same day, 19 different Jack Sparrows. Goddess knows what else we saw out there on Pirate Invasion. So I'm kind of ready for that.

The problem with authenticity standards when it comes to an overall pirate festival is that any kit is good, from the Phoenicians to current day Somali. We all know what we think is pirate , but that is really up in the air depending on what period you are taking on. I still have not decided whether to come down for PiP in GAoP kit or with my Elizabethan Seadog kit, especially since I am now reproducing items from the Mary Rose for the sutlery.

Remember that this discussion sprang from discussion of a historical venue with a very specific year and culture. that is where standards need to be hard and fast. The thought occurs to me of a rating for crews or people. "Museum Approved" "Street Performer" "Weapons Specialists" and so on. That way both recruits coming in and people looking to have us at their festivals know what they are getting into.

Safety is my big candy coloured button. One of the first cannon courses I took back in the 80's was taught by a one armed gunner. For those of you who remember, he was involved in the accident that shut down the LaPann gun foundry. For me, there is no good enough, or it will be OK, or any second string. You are on the mark, up to date, properly trained and equipped or you are not on the line, period. Powder is kept under lock and key, alcohol is not consumed until the powder is finished with and locked away, guns have full crews, safety distances are covered and understood, crews have received proper training, and all guns are inspected and properly equipped. No exceptions. Nobody trains under fire, nobody gets to walk on. Yeah, I'm the hardest of hardasses when it comes to this.

Hawkyns

[RedJessi]

Boy, is PiP going to make you crazy, Hawkyns. :) Some of the crewes receive training the day before they're on the line. And I don't think there are a lot of exacting standards - the Viceroy (and Harry up until this year) handled everything at the fort. Don't know who was out with the field pieces.

As one of the people who received training the day before being on the line - and as a member of the first all woman crewe - I feel I must speak up here. Mainly because I feel it is an incorrect supposition, but also because it is an insult to Grace and the quality of the instruction she gave us.

Grace went over, back and forth, not just the "how-to" of firing a big honking gun - but also the safety issues, answered every question myself, Kate Souris and Rusty Nell had, and made sure we understood what we were doing and WHY we were doing it. We had a specific count for each move, and she made sure we were each comfortable with our positions. When I told her at the offset that I was not comfortable in one position, she promptly made it a crewe discussion and we were all given opportunity to define our own comfort zones. We took the matter of manning the gun together extremely seriously and not a one of us would have accepted any nonsense around the weapon. In fact, when another pirate stepped up on the line just minutes before the battle and asked to join a crewe - Grace refused to even have our crewe as a consideration in the matter. There was no way we were letting a totally unknown element into the mix on a moment's notice.

We kept our crew together for 2 days (in fact, we were specifically requested to return the second day) and I cannot give Grace enough credit for being the reason we did so well.

Flash forward to May, and Kate and I are on the Santa Maria, manning another gun (much smaller) - perfectly comfortable with what we are doing because of Grace. And when there was a misfire - despite the gun owner stating how he felt we should handle the matter - because of our own sense of safety and respect of the danger such weapons can present - we both refused to continue on the line and stepped down to let the owner handle the matter himself - because we didn't necessarily agree with what he said to do and neither of us had personal experience with the matter.

The point being that you don't have to have 10+ years experience to have a sensible head on your shoulders and you don't have to have known/witnessed/heard of a guy who lost a limb to comprehend the dangers of firing a weapon.

[michaelsbagley]

Flash forward to May, and Kate and I are on the Santa Maria, manning another gun (much smaller) - perfectly comfortable with what we are doing because of Grace. And when there was a misfire - despite the gun owner stating how he felt we should handle the matter - because of our own sense of safety and respect of the danger such weapons can present - we both refused to continue on the line and stepped down to let the owner handle the matter himself - because we didn't necessarily agree with what he said to do and neither of us had personal experience with the matter.

The point being that you don't have to have 10+ years experience to have a sensible head on your shoulders and you don't have to have known/witnessed/heard of a guy who lost a limb to comprehend the dangers of firing a weapon.

To further add to this, said owner of said canon, is "certified" in artillery in the State Parks system, and various of the "big player" Rev War systems.

[Capt. Sterling]

Grace is very good and has a lot of experience, but even she is learning... and after Pike River, new safety rule for all girl gun crews... boys clothes...long skirts can be a major safety issue...tripping, getting tools caught in the folds... etc...she completely agreed when this was pointed out to her...

[RedJessi]

Yeah, I know Hurricane. I'm already considering getting a prozac drip for the week . The clothing issue is what it is. Two years ago at MDRF we had, on the same day, 19 different Jack Sparrows. Goddess knows what else we saw out there on Pirate Invasion. So I'm kind of ready for that.

Why do you hate Jack Sparrow?

I'm having a hard time grasping this concept.

Is he authentic? No - what in Hollywood is?

But are we authentic? If you are really honest with yourself, I think you have to answer no as well - we can only make educated guesses at how accurate we are.

Is he entertaining? That's a matter of personal taste.

Are we entertaining? Same as above.

Did he raise the awareness level in the general public and spawn several History Channel specials to be aired in the wake of each movie? You better believe it. Were all those specials accurate? Probably not - but neither are we. I think we all do the best we can and I doubt the dramatic documentarians were maliciously trying to spread disinformation.

Do we raise awareness levels? If only we had his marketing campaign - I think we do as good as we can.

So....explain this to me. Why hate a fictional character that raised awareness? It seems kind of like a wasted effort to me - and all you are accomplishing is making yourself feel a whole lot of negativity, because I can just about guarantee you that not a single one of those 19 Jack Sparrows was concerned with your ire. They were there to have fun.

[hurricane]

Jessi,

I certainly did not mean to impune any of the cannon crewes, only the fact that many old timers would have looked aghast at the situation, especially those who have moved through the ranks of cannoneer positions in a more formal environment.

Personally, we never shoot our cannon down there because we only operate with one, maybe two people on the gun. We don't trust anyone else in our crewe to have the wherewithall to pay attention enough, so it's pretty much Diosa, Willie or I who have to man the cannon (we were trained by Willie). That's not to say we're haphazard - far from it. But we don't really do the whole drill - we do more of a shipboard drill with a small crewe that's born out of necessity - many cannon, few crewe members to run them during battle. So we run with the two person drill instead of the customary four everyone uses.

The crewes there are well trained and what they lack in experience, they lack in very solid judgement. I for one was very, very impressed.

-- Hurricane

[Jack Roberts]

I think the rub against the "Sparrows" is that many of us have seen too many bad ones. I grow tired of them but I can't really complain.

It was Sparrow that got me into Pyrates in the first place. I do feel there is a place for them. Heck I still even do a Hollywood impression from time to time. It just get tiring of seeing so many at every festival. How about some originality? I know that's how I feel about it.

[RedJessi]

Grace is very good and has a lot of experience, but even she is learning... and after Pike River, new safety rule for all girl gun crews... boys clothes...long skirts can be a major safety issue...tripping, getting tools caught in the folds... etc...she completely agreed when this was pointed out to her...

Frankly, we should all always be learning. Isn't that one of the points of this whole enterprise? It is the people who think of themselves as the utter experts that I find the most troubling. Maybe that's part of my own personal philosophy of life/education - which dovetails with one of my favorite quotes from Picasso - "A painting is never finished. It just stops in interesting places".

Education is never completed and mastery is never attained. We just stop and move on to other things when we've hit out own line.

[Hawkyns]

Jessi- where do get the idea that I hate Jack Sparrow? I have all 3 movies, just watched #3 on Saturday. I also like Cutthroat Island and Swashbuckler, among others. What I hate is the effin lack of imagination that manifests itself. Bloody hell, can't people think beyond making a cookie cutter image of someone else? We have 140 years of the era where pirates were a big thing, we have 5 continents and 3 oceans and multiple seas. There is a body of pirate literature, both accurate and fantasy, tha is enough to fill a library of it's own. And all people can bloody well do is dress up like somebody else. It doesn't have to be authentic , it doesn't have to be perfect for something like this, but can't it at least be different?

Hawkyns

[Capt. Sterling]

Grace is very good and has a lot of experience, but even she is learning... and after Pike River, new safety rule for all girl gun crews... boys clothes...long skirts can be a major safety issue...tripping, getting tools caught in the folds... etc...she completely agreed when this was pointed out to her...

Frankly, we should all always be learning. Isn't that one of the points of this whole enterprise? It is the people who think of themselves as the utter experts that I find the most troubling. Maybe that's part of my own personal philosophy of life/education - which dovetails with one of my favorite quotes from Picasso - "A painting is never finished. It just stops in interesting places".

Education is never completed and mastery is never attained. We just stop and move on to other things when we've hit out own line.

Yer preaching to the choir here...

Edited October 6, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[hurricane]

Jessi- where do get the idea that I hate Jack Sparrow? I have all 3 movies, just watched #3 on Saturday. I also like Cutthroat Island and Swashbuckler, among others. What I hate is the effin lack of imagination that manifests itself. Bloody hell, can't people think beyond making a cookie cutter image of someone else? We have 140 years of the era where pirates were a big thing, we have 5 continents and 3 oceans and multiple seas. There is a body of pirate literature, both accurate and fantasy, tha is enough to fill a library of it's own. And all people can bloody well do is dress up like somebody else. It doesn't have to be authentic , it doesn't have to be perfect for something like this, but can't it at least be different?

Hawkyns

That too is my rub. I can't stand the lack of imagination, given the wealth of information out there. It's just so disheartening to see so many Jack imitations, most of which are poor. I'd rather see some originality and broaden the tapestry of an event. I just can't take any more Jacks. Enough, already! Really, why can't someone be Blair or Dog Brown from Cutthroat - those were some interesting characters to work with. Some of the characters from Nate and Hayes would be great too, like Blake... and that's just out of two movies.

- Hurricane

[Mission]

Or John Cleese as the Blind Pew?

Actually, I think multiple Jack Sparrows at an event are sort of funny. (I wonder if Ted and Terry had this in the back of their mind when they penned the Jack in Davy Jones Locker bit? )

[Jack Roberts]

LOL I never thought of that. I bet they did. Know I really like that scene when I think about it that way. Thanks Mission.

[RedJessi]

Jessi- where do get the idea that I hate Jack Sparrow? I have all 3 movies, just watched #3 on Saturday. I also like Cutthroat Island and Swashbuckler, among others. What I hate is the effin lack of imagination that manifests itself. Bloody hell, can't people think beyond making a cookie cutter image of someone else? We have 140 years of the era where pirates were a big thing, we have 5 continents and 3 oceans and multiple seas. There is a body of pirate literature, both accurate and fantasy, tha is enough to fill a library of it's own. And all people can bloody well do is dress up like somebody else. It doesn't have to be authentic , it doesn't have to be perfect for something like this, but can't it at least be different?

Hawkyns

That too is my rub. I can't stand the lack of imagination, given the wealth of information out there. It's just so disheartening to see so many Jack imitations, most of which are poor. I'd rather see some originality and broaden the tapestry of an event. I just can't take any more Jacks. Enough, already! Really, why can't someone be Blair or Dog Brown from Cutthroat - those were some interesting characters to work with. Some of the characters from Nate and Hayes would be great too, like Blake... and that's just out of two movies.

- Hurricane

Hawkyns, I get the idea based on how often I've seen you make fun of the people who dress like him at events.

To put it simply? No. Not everyone is capable of that. Which is exactly why there is a market for premade costumes. Also, some people get a kick out of recreating -not a time period, but a specific person or icon. Which is why every year people dress up as Superman for Halloween. Gosh, why can't everyone make their OWN iconic superhero?

Well, because it takes a whole lot of talent to do what Jerome Siegel and Joseph Shuster did when they created Superman. Not EVERYONE can create Superman. Not EVERYONE can create their own interpretation of a pirate - fantasy or historical. Does that mean those people should be looked down upon because they are not as talented and knowledgeable as you? Should they not be allowed to participate? Should they be ridiculed for not having the same abilities or the same level of interest as you do?

Are there a lot of Jack Sparrows at pirate events? Absolutely. I think that's a given. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am interested in how much effort they put into to portraying the character, I am interested in why they chose him and I am most of all interested in why they decided to dress like him on a hot day in March to come out to a park and hang out.

So I ask them. Sometimes they just shrug and says "He's a cool character" or "My girlfriend likes him" or some variation. Sometimes it's because he's the first pirate to catch their interest - and then they start asking questions - and maybe they get interested in actual GAoP and maybe they don't. But At least a dialog was opened. Which I feel is a lot more productive than snickering or rolling my eyes at ANOTHER "effin" Sparrow.

[Ransom]

At the next event, I'm coming as pyrate Elvis.

[Quartermaster James]

Frankly, we should all always be learning. Isn't that one of the points of this whole enterprise?

I wholeheartedly agree, and in this context see this conversation as not about a clash of "elites" vs "others" but rather of those students who show up and pay attention vs. the class clown or those that cut class altogether.

[Quartermaster James]

At the next event, I'm coming as pyrate Elvis.

I think Shayna beat you to it!

See: http://www.dresslikeapirate.com/

[Quartermaster James]

What's a freebooter, exactly? I keep trying to figure it out but I don;t think I have the meaning...

Out here, in the wildest regions of the pacific northwest, the preferred term is Free Range Pyrate.

[Jack Roberts]

At the next event, I'm coming as pyrate Elvis.

LOL I'm coming as a Somali Pirate complete with an AK47!!