Philosophy of Authenticity

[hurricane]

Searle's Raid is kind of like that - there's no pressure to interact with the audience. We establish the camp in town, we mingle with our own, run drills, eat communally, and then battle in the streets. It wouldn't really matter if there was an audience during the battle or not. It's a chance to fire in very closed quarters on a street that actually saw battle during the time.

If the public wasn't there, I don't think it would really matter. The re-enactors all love the time to get together and play with one another, renew acquaintances and have fun learning.

-- Hurricane

[Hawkyns]

i have told/asked my husband a million times ---

" WHY WHY WHY dont these period re-enactors just agree to take over some campground and set up a camp that educates AND provides an atmosphere of play { AKA partying and drinking for those who do imbibe}- absolutely no pressure to perform for any audience and JUST PLAY AND LEARN????

Happens all the time. Most military reenactors call them tacticals. They are not scripted, there is no set outcome and there are rarely any spectators. Can be anything from an afternoon get together to something like the one they run on Lake George for the F&I folks. 4 days, scouting, fighting, camping and you are tactical for the entire time. Your camp can be attacked at any hour, day or night, they use ambushes, skirmishes, anything that you might have seen in the 1750's in the region. Including boats on the lake.

Treks are another form. A bunch of guys get together and go into the woods for a day or a few days. Maybe you hunt for dinner, maybe it's just a backpacking trip with period kit and guns. Very common. Or they'll take canoes down a stretch of wilderness river.

Rendezvous are another variation. People get together and live the period for a few days. Instead of battles, they have target shooting and axe throwing competitions. Traders set up and there is period shopping and trading.

Or, as I said, some of us will get to move into a living history village for a few days. We become the inhabitants and do all the things that would be neccesary to keep a village going.

None of these require spectators and many of them do not allow them. We are out there to perfect our skills and to learn to appreciate the life of our ancestors. After a few days, or even a couple of weeks with no electricity, no phones, no computers and no modern distractions, you really get to appreciate the simple life.

What I haven't seen yet is something like this for the pyrate community. Partially, it's because we don't have the type of events that would lend themselves to that sort of thing. We can have a drunken carrouse anywhere, but where can we actually set up a carreening camp with an actual ship to work on and all the tasks that need doing. also, we are so fragmented that we we don't have an overall organising body that could set something like this up. Even without the ship, a large camp would require logistics, front money, and probably insurance. Sometimes, our independant attitude works against us.

Hawkyns

[Ransom]

Reminds me of my old SCA days, when we would go to "wars". It was just meant for the participants. If someone happened to blunder in from the outside, then they were free to watch, but we weren't "on show" and didn't have to worry about language, actions, or alcohol — other than the limitations we put on ourselves as a group. Very few players got totally out of hand, and it was fun to just play.

The pyrate community could probably organize something like that eventually, but it would take time, money, and commitment from everyone to get it going. And finding a place to hold it would take a lot of searching, especially if you wanted the event on a coastline. You need a large bit of land, a place for everyone to camp, and a place for parking.

It would be fun, though. Maybe someday?

[Dutchman]

Hawkyns

"What I haven't seen yet is something like this for the pyrate community. Partially, it's because we don't have the type of events that would lend themselves to that sort of thing. We can have a drunken carrouse anywhere, but where can we actually set up a carreening camp with an actual ship to work on and all the tasks that need doing. also, we are so fragmented that we we don't have an overall organising body that could set something like this up. Even without the ship, a large camp would require logistics, front money, and probably insurance. Sometimes, our independant attitude works against us."

Ransom

"The pyrate community could probably organize something like that eventually, but it would take time, money, and commitment from everyone to get it going. And finding a place to hold it would take a lot of searching, especially if you wanted the event on a coastline. You need a large bit of land, a place for everyone to camp, and a place for parking."

well folks, please refer to the school of the sailor thread in the colonial seaport foundations crew section.

We have one more event to do and then we start the planning. Its our event and the museum says we can do what ever the heck we want, within legal reason. BTW a rather large announcement will be out next week regarding an upcoming venture for the foundation. we are quite pleased with ourselves.

edit* to eliminate any confusion. when i say "our event" its ours as in CSF and the crew may be coordinating it, but it belongs to all the maritime enthusiasts who show up to make it happen. I firmly believe in letting folks take ownership of what they are involved in. . . . . .that way i dont swing alone when it flops

[callenish gunner]

To concur with Dutch, the logistics of such events with groups so spread out and disjointed and no central governing body to issue standards to meet, it is hard to think how it could be overcome without a lot of serious interaction and development of a council and bylaws and consensus by the membership. However, to most of the pirate groups who choose to be year specific in their portrayals, who will set the standards for events and do we need to make standards for every ten year period from 1580's to the 1730's and the privateers of the seven years wars and the AWI and the Napoleonic era as well. it does become a bit unruly to set standards to please the purists for every ten year mini period. Just my tuppence worth!!! I do think events should be accurate to the period or event they are portraying.

The perception of the attitude of those that are some times presented by offering their comments on others kit can and is often misconstrued by those hearing it and feelings are hurt! It becomes a court of absolutes and resentments and gets nowhere fast ...If folks could collaborate and piece together a comprehensive compendium of standards, so that expectations don't come as a surprise to would be participants for events and issue a prospectus of what would be allowed within the framework of the individual events.

Edited October 3, 2009 by callenish gunner

[Animal]

In a way, I believe that PIP is set up that way. The only real division of crews is the pirates and the pirate hunters. Them bastids keep wanting to hang us poor fishermen. Basically the crews intermingle and form one large crew. Seems about the same as Morgans sack of Panama and other raids. The crews came from all over and formed up under one captain. I'm sure there were minor difference of opinions but the goal in the end kept them together and working as a total entity.

Animal

[Commodore Swab]

As a new person to this (I was at ft meyers 4 years ago and PiP in 07) I don't get out much and am slowly putting together my "kit/clothes" I am not a reinactor but do want to be historically correct. What I think it all really boils down to when it comes to helping somebody like myself is constructive criticism saying that someone is doing something wrong is one thing how you say it is vastly more important.

[Mission]

I actually like the somewhat chaotic nature of the pirate re-enactors I've met. If this were to become formal and involve joining things, paying dues and/or adhering to rules, I would most likely wander off and find a new hobby. While such order would support a more pure form of re-enactment and represent history better, it would also necessarily create divisions between "serious" re-enactors and fantasy pirates. I would miss the fantasy pirates.

I try very hard to create a PC accurate portrayal of surgery - without doing operations, as I explained. (I enjoy being a teacher far, far, far more than being an actor. This is recreation for me, after all.) So that's what I want to do. If you want to create a strictly period accurate portrayal (well, as far as we can determine what's "strictly" period accurate), that's what you want to do. So by all means, do it. You'll set a good example. But just because you want to work hard to look PC doesn't mean that everyone else does. Being irritated by someone else's kit is actually your problem, not theirs. If you must be with strictly accurate people to be happy, form a group with the rules you all want and go forth and prosper if you can. But don't pick on the poor fantasy folks or people whose skills or pockets only afford them a kit that is "close" just because they're doing something different than you. (This is why I think event coordinators should decide what they want and stick to it. If no one else wants that, the event will not happen. If others do, it will.)

As for telling people something's wrong with their kit, that's a matter of perception. If you are telling an individual why their kit isn't correct and they don't care, you are essentially trying to impose your views on someone else, no matter how nicely you phrase it. Better to set the example and have them ask you about your kit than to try and correct them. If you absolutely must tell someone else about the correctness of their kit, complement the things they're doing right and don't mention the things that aren't right. Study after study has shown that people typically repeat what is complimented and justify what is criticized. They rarely stop doing it unless they hold you in high regard or you have the ability to coerce them. (Well...unless you're one of those extraordinarily empathetic people who can suggest things in such a way that it is appealing and in NO way threatening. If you're wondering if you're one of those people, you're probably not. It's an art.) If, after complimenting them they ask you what you think about things that aren't right, you have probably been put in the "high regard" category and you can (pleasantly) explain how they could improve.

[Quartermaster James]

To my mind, at least, as pyrates we have a fundamental paradox to over come:

Teach? Act? As pyrates, when not actually engaged in criminal activities would we draw attention to the fact?

No sir! No pyrates here! Nothing to see here at all...

Now, this legitimate sea-going businessman will return you to your former discussion and go back to his lurking and plotting in the darker corners of the pub...

[Mission]

To my mind, at least, as pyrates we have a fundamental paradox to over come:

Teach? Act?

Nah, it's all good. It's really two sides of the same coin. In fact, add in fantasy and it's three sides of the same coin - entertainment. Cuz' if it ain't entertaining on some level, most people aren't interested in coming to see it. (Some people are interested in pure education, but they usually go to school for that. I shudder to think how many things I've said about period surgery that were wrong because I forgot something or hadn't read the right resource yet.)

There are people who only want to reenact in the manner it actually would have been done and as accurately as can be done (as previous posters attest), but I find they often don't really care that much about entertaining the public. (Although, strictly speaking, they are entertaining themselves and their co-participants with their accuracy, so even then...)

[casketchris]

i felt the same way kenneth now that we have been doing it a few years, the other reenacting groups are starting to take us with more that a grain of salt and looking at us a fellow reenacters for the fact that we know about our history and try to recreate it as best as possible, i really looking forward to it this year for that fact, and thats what it takes, people to open their minds about reenacting and try to accept new groups in.

[hurricane]

I would say you're fairly correct there Michael. I've been performing and appearing as a pirate for 27 years, now, but only in the past three have I been pursuing re-enactment level activities. I also think the pirates I know who do this do it for themselves more than any publicity or notice, so it doesn't appear in the mainstream as much as other periods. As Hawkyns said, sometimes it's just disappearing into a piece of land and living the life without the notice of others. Much easier to cover the visibility of a Civil War engagement with a thousand folks than to root out us pirates in our own pursuits.

-- Hurricane

[Hawkyns]

Let's see, I started reenacting back in 1980, doing WWII. Brit Commando first, then switching over to Waffen SS. Got hooked up with 30 Years War in 85 then modified that to English Civil War in 87. Stayed with that as a unit commander until 2005, when we disbanded. Still get the lads together occasionally, but not as a full time unit. For a few years in there around 97, I did American Civil War in the 8th Texas Cavalry. On and off did some Frog and Savage and then joined the Rev War Royal Irish Artillery 2 years ago. I do a lot of Elizabethan Border Reiver these days. Pyracy, I've been doing on and off for about 8 years. I do it either as one of Drake's seadogs, or in the GAoP.

I think it was because I did WWII first that I got hooked on the harsh authenticity. You have to there, there are still people around who lived it to tell you what you did wrong. Not to mention, lots of original kit and lots of documentation. I carried that attitude since then. I don't need the public, not at all. I do this for my own reasons, to escape the 21st C, to find out how our ancestors lived, and to indulge my love of early weaponry. Find me fire, a pint of cider, and a period song or two,put me in period kit with a musket and sword nearby and I have all the reason I need to do this. On my own, with a group of the lads, or even with an audience of mundanes, it doesn't matter, I'll be happy. I can deal with the mundane audience better than I can deal with an inaccurate reenactor. I know the danes are out of place, so I can ignore them. When I see somebody who is a participant, though, who is in some manner out of place in their kit, it jars the mind. I have much more trouble ignoring it, can't tell you why. So I try and stay witin my own circle whenever possible.

Hawkyns

[Kenneth]

"Find me fire, a pint of cider, and a period song or two,put me in period kit with a musket and sword nearby and I have all the reason I need to do this. On my own, with a group of the lads, or even with an audience of mundanes, it doesn't matter, I'll be happy."

Hawkyns said what I was thinking. You should make that first sentence your quote on your profile!

[Capt. Sterling]

I hear people say they have 20 or 30 years in reenacting piracy? How come reenactor magazines and website haven't a clue about it? If so many people have been doing it so long, wouldn't there be more information about pyracy groups??

hmmm Blackbeard's crew has been doing things for at least ten years, but I think 20 or 30 would be stretching it for them as well...

[callenish gunner]

I was doing French & Indian War and later American War of Independence beginning around 1970 and fur trade era with the blackpowder rendevous in '71-'72. I had also done English Civil War and Restoration during the late '70's, but also doing Renaissance/Tudor acting doing Shakespeare and Marlowe for years. We did what we could with the materials and accoutrement that were available on the open market.

My first musket was an original Brown Bess ( I bought from an old man for $50) and I had a Lancaster County Pennsylvania Long rifle that had been passed down in my father's family for over at least 150 years(at least it was never hung over a fireplace all those years). The first sword I had here was a early 1800's sabre. Over the years the most difficulty I have faced was getting correct shoes or boots to fit (since I wear a size 14).

I first did Piracy in the late '90's and period seaman in Erie, PA.

[RedJessi]

here's one for Mission and Jessi, why is that people get so damned defensive all the time? instead of just assuming that someone is actually trying to help? Time to get back to the old standard of believing the best and not the worst of people...

The problem with creating elite events is that you end up with elitists. And the meta communication that comes with that social standing is often interpreted as others to be condescending at least - hostile at worst.

For example, being called out in the manner I was (which is to say, in a vague enough manner that neither Misson or myself are quite sure why our names are appearing, other than perhaps a penchant for verbosity in regards to topics psychological) by someone who has taken a stance of more accuracy.

Now, I could take this to be calling me out as a newbie (since pip 08 was my first ever event) or as a newbie who gets things particularly wrong as far as accuracy, or as a person who is especially known for being defensive and not assuming people are trying to help.

I could also take is as the near opposite of those things - that I am a particularly erudite and even headed newbie who has all the style and class that should be associated with events. (I think my metal grommets and zippered boots prove otherwise).

What makes me decide on which course of belief to take? In large part it comes from the tone, context, and such as well as what I know of or any history I have with the person speaking. Thus, I think it's easy for a newbie to feel talked down to or vaguely ridiculed at events, because of the aforementioned elitist matter.

Being a resident expert tends to bring with it certain behavior patterns - in the group these behaviors work to identify the leaders. They also work to identify and divide the "ingroup" and "outgroup". This is all part of social identity theory - and if you really want the info, I can certainly provide it - but for the sake of not derailing a twill thread any further, I will end with this synopsis of how the theory could converge with your specific question:

By creating this ingroup (accurate) and outgroup (newbie/ less accurate/ "reel") there is an inherent outgroup homogeneity bias (the theory that those of the outgroup are less varied than those of the ingroup) and generally people tend to privilege the ingroup members over the outgroup members. Thus, being an outgroup member can really suck - and thus, people are more prone to get defensive.

[RedJessi]

To further Cuisto's point... I live in the mid-west.... There were never GAoP here (river pirates were a later thing)... And while it is small, we have been working to some more living history events out this way, and getting some pretty good turnouts. Anyone can re-enact anything (within reason) anywhere they want. It only takes a few guys to put together and event, the more the better, but a handful or two people and a place to play.

http://www.acws.co.uk/

no kidding!

[Mission]

For example, being called out in the manner I was (which is to say, in a vague enough manner that neither Misson or myself are quite sure why our names are appearing, other than perhaps a penchant for verbosity in regards to topics psychological)

I resemble that remark. Say, you did see this! I didn't figure you for a regular Twill visitor.

I followed you all the way up to homogeneity bias. I would think the outgroup would be more varied than the ingroup, but in the wrong way. Unless you're talking about the ingroup's perception of the outgroup?

The problem with creating elite events is that you end up with elitists. And the meta communication that comes with that social standing is often interpreted as others to be condescending at least - hostile at worst.

I believe that hits the nail directly on the head. But groups are a natural part of any social function. Curiously, the ingroup is only 'in' if there is consensus (and then it's only in for the individuals who happen to agree with the consensus - either negatively or positively.) 'Period correctness' provides a natural organizing principle for group inclusion at some pirate events. (Although I find this primarily absent at PiP...which is why I think it is one of the greatest events I attend.)

Funny you should mention communication. It is ultimately the key to not being perceived as elitist. The more open a group is in communicating and the more accepting they are to people attempting to achieve the standard set by the organizing principle, the less elitist they will appear as far as I can tell.

[blackjohn]

Don't quote me on this, as I am not one of those.... But I believe there are people who have been re-enacting for 20 or 30 years that are doing pirate now....

I am personally celebrating my 30th anniversary of reenacting.

Hooray for me!

Most of the people I hang with have about the same amount of time in.

I honestly don't think there are many out there that have been doing pirate re-enacting for more than a handful of years. The Pirate Brethren are the oldest I know of (at about 10 or 11 years old)

Fwiw, our lineage goes something like this. A bunch of people in the medievalist group I was once a member of held a feast many years ago (circa 1985), the theme of which was Pirates, as opposed to the normal Vikings, Saxons, Normans, etc. It was so much fun, it became a yearly thing. Each year, after it was all said and done, we'd kick back and say, "you know, we should actually reenact this period." Fast forward about 5 years, and most of us had migrated into RevWar. But every year we'd still go to the Pirate Feast. And every year we'd say "you know, we should actually reenact this period."

About 1994 I decided to do something about it. I made my coat. Started talking to some others. A bunch of us got together with a notion of putting together a camp for Military through the Ages. I was quartermaster. Joe Marek was captain. The lot of us went down to Jamestown for the event... and lo and behold once there we were told "pirates aren't military so you will not be allowed to participate." This was about 1995. May have been '94 or '96. But anyway, that's the first time I know of that someone got together to make an attempt at "reenacting" pirates, in the sense of the term as I am familiar with it.

I know people have been dressing as pirates in one fashion or another and celebrating the pirate ideal for much longer.

[RedJessi]

For example, being called out in the manner I was (which is to say, in a vague enough manner that neither Misson or myself are quite sure why our names are appearing, other than perhaps a penchant for verbosity in regards to topics psychological)

I resemble that remark. Say, you did see this! I didn't figure you for a regular Twill visitor.

I sneak in on occasion. Post on even more rare occasion. I try to be verrrry sneaky and only do so at 3am. heh

I followed you all the way up to homogeneity bias. I would think the outgroup would be more varied than the ingroup, but in the wrong way. Unless you're talking about the ingroup's perception of the outgroup?

Sort of. The strict definition is that members see their own group as being more varied than members of the outgroup.It's kinda like the attributional bias - in that you see youself or your group as being more varied because you are on hand to observe it more, whereas you see other individuals/groups and make cognitive leaps of potentially erroneous inductive reasoning as shorthand. Or, another way to put it would be - because we have a fair amount of information regarding members of our own group (ingroup) we are able to differentiate among them. But we tend to view members of other groups (outgroups) as being very similar to each other.Like stereotyping, to a degree. Like deciding all PC pirates are holier-than-thou stitch counters or that non-PC pirates are Jack-Sparrow-come-latelys who won't be arsed to put time or research into their kit.

This gets really destructive when we get to attributional errors.

The problem with creating elite events is that you end up with elitists. And the meta communication that comes with that social standing is often interpreted as others to be condescending at least - hostile at worst.

I believe that hits the nail directly on the head. But groups are a natural part of any social function. Curiously, the ingroup is only 'in' if there is consensus (and then it's only in for the individuals who happen to agree with the consensus - either negatively or positively.) 'Period correctness' provides a natural organizing principle for group inclusion at some pirate events. (Although I find this primarily absent at PiP...which is why I think it is one of the greatest events I attend.)

This is true, but it is the value placed on one group over another. In the case of pirating, what I see is a way of thinking that communicates that PC pirates are better than non-PC pirates - which crosses ingroup/outgroup borders, as "reel" pirates (once confronted by an individual who is a stickler for accuracy) will - even if begrudgingly or with a sense of personal injury - afford the PC pirates the privileges denied to themselves.

Funny you should mention communication. It is ultimately the key to not being perceived as elitist. The more open a group is in communicating and the more accepting they are to people attempting to achieve the standard set by the organizing principle, the less elitist they will appear as far as I can tell.

Again, taking this to attributional errors mars that statement. If a member of an outgroup does something bad (be rude, condescending, snaps about the quality of their kit, etc) we tend to conclude "Thats the way those people are". In contrast, when an ingroup member does something equally negative, we tend to make dispositional attributions, blaming the individual rather than the group. Thus, a non-PC pirate has one negative encounter with a PC-pirate and the assumption is that all PC pirates are uptight braggarts who are in a closed group. This can, of course, seriously damage an individuals desire to join the group (and thus, they will stick to the relative safety of the group they know - even if disparaged).

Something else in this thread triggered a memory to an article I recall reading - but I will have to wait until I get to my office to review the article to see if it's worth posting here. Which is to say, I may actually be back to a twill thread.

[Capt. Sterling]

[quote name='RedJessi' date='05 Octo

This is true, but it is the value placed on one group over another. In the case of pirating, what I see is a way of thinking that communicates that PC pirates are better than non-PC pirates - which crosses ingroup/outgroup borders, as "reel" pirates (once confronted by an individual who is a stickler for accuracy) will - even if begrudgingly or with a sense of personal injury - afford the PC pirates the privileges denied to themselves.This is true, but it is the value placed on one group over another. In the case of pirating, what I see is a way of thinking that communicates that PC pirates are better than non-PC pirates - which crosses ingroup/outgroup borders, as "reel" pirates (once confronted by an individual who is a stickler for accuracy) will - even if begrudgingly or with a sense of personal injury - afford the PC pirates the privileges denied to themselves.

When it comes down to it, this is truly ashame... as there is no reason not to have the two different groups and one is truly not better nor worse than the other... just different... Our crew loves working with both "Reel and Real" as they afford great opportunities to show off the differences in a positive light and still teach...as film/myth history is just as important as teaching the factual history...I find it fascinating how one develops or leads to the other and the then back again...

Edited October 5, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

Right then the damn quote should read...

This is true, but it is the value placed on one group over another. In the case of pirating, what I see is a way of thinking that communicates that PC pirates are better than non-PC pirates - which crosses ingroup/outgroup borders, as "reel" pirates (once confronted by an individual who is a stickler for accuracy) will - even if begrudgingly or with a sense of personal injury - afford the PC pirates the privileges denied to themselves.

[Mission]

{Note: responding to Jessi here without re-quoting everything}

Yeah, I would have chalked the in/outgroup generalizations to stereotyping, which seems to me to be just another function of elevating the status of your group (rather artificially).

Attribution theory is cool when you can look at it from the outside. Everyone here would probably be absolutely amazed at the silly things we do to justify ourselves and, regarding this discussion, our groups. Attribution behaviors are so predictable they have a list of them in just about every Psych text. What's even cooler is that once you understand things like the fundamental attribution error, you can catch yourself and begin to modify that behavior.

Edit: Hmm. I should explain that. Fundamental attribution error is when you decide an example of another person behavior (usually an "outsider") is something of a permanent characteristic. So if you meet a re-enactor at an event and they are picky about PCness, you call them a thread counter and then always (or nearly always) view them through this lens you have imposed upon them. (Basically what Jessi said.)

[michaelsbagley]

You two (Red and Mission) just make me smile with your psychological analysis!

Sterling, my intent was not to accuse you of purposely misquoting me, perhaps my suggestions of the nature of the technical hiccup were lost in translation or misconstrued. I am sorry if you took my pointing that out as a slight, it was intended to point out the misquote, not place blame for it. I'll pass the info of the quirk on to Stynky to look at for bug fixes (if you or someone hasn't already passed on the message). I'm sorry that has been happening to you, I can imagine the frustration at trying to post a quote, and having the quote come out wrong and confuse the message.

Back on topic, I know the in/out group thing is easiest to set example to with the PC/non-PC pirates (because of the fairly obvious distinctions between the two), but I think to add to more confusion, there are various striations and styles of PC re-enacting that are likely more at play with this discussion than with the PC/non-PC thing. I think many have within this discussion have done a good job at illustrating some of the many styles of historical re-enacting. It is also my observation that most re-enactors do tend to work in varying styles of re-enactments, some more in one style, some more in others... With a fair number that are fairly migrant and work in many if not all styles.