Hardenning (re-hardenning) your frizzen

[michaelsbagley]

Thanks for the suggestions Cascabel...

I think I will have a closer look at the notches in the tumbler, but the pull feels smooth, just too stiff, so far (without a closer look) I would think it is more the sear spring than the notches... But we will see.

I'm starting to see the truth behind what is becoming an adage on some of the muzzle loading forums I am on... The quote tends to run something along the lines of the India Guns not being good guns out of the box, but not bad as "kits" that need plenty of adjusting and fine tuning.

[Cascabel]

Thanks for the suggestions Cascabel...

I'm starting to see the truth behind what is becoming an adage on some of the muzzle loading forums I am on... The quote tends to run something along the lines of the India Guns not being good guns out of the box, but not bad as "kits" that need plenty of adjusting and fine tuning.

Well...... I never thought very highly of the India made guns. They really are best considered as "kits", rather than good right out of the box. They are improving, but still have a long way to go !!! Of course, on the other hand, they are relatively inexpensive. I don't want to be thought of as an "elitist", and I hate to torpedo a guy's choice after he has spent his hard-earned money, but you will not get a $2000 hand made piece for $300 either !! Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes not.

>>>> Cascabel

[callenish gunner]

I certainly agree with you Cascabel and Mickey. The Indian made guns are basic blackpowder weapons to fill the niche of the largest proportion of reenactors and other enthusiasts. Yes iI would love to be able to make and market the guns I build from scratch but so few are willing to buy them that I do offer the more reasonable guns to allow those who want to particpate in the hobby to join without excluding them.

Are they as perfect as we'd all like? HELL NO!!! Can they be tweeked to perform better? In most cases, yes. Most of the folks I end up dealing with want effective noisemakers. I try to offer the best I can for the marketplace.

[michaelsbagley]

Callenish, as always you make a great point. The India made guns are perfect for allowing those who are not infinitely wealthy (which is most of us) into the hobby much more quickly... And you are also the source of my greatest joy when it comes to the India made guns... The pistol I got from you was one of the "good ones" as it has needed no fussing, no adjusting, and despite it being used very often, I have had to change the flint only once in the 6 months I have been using it.

Some day I will be able to afford the custom hand crafted musket of my dreams, but until then, the India made guns are more than great enough to make me happy, specially the "lucky" ones with no quirks! And there are more than enough helpful people here (and on other forums I am on) to help me work through the quirks to get my less than ideal pieces to a much better place.

[D.man]

I'am just throwing my two dublooms in but wouldnt it be easier to replace a frizzen than trying to reharden it, or is that a problem in finding a new part for a pistol.

Thanks

Dman

[Quartermaster James]

Depending upon the individual gun involved, the frizzen may need to be fitted to the lock.

Even barring that, no. It's easier and more cost effective to simply harden the face again.

[Cascabel]

I'am just throwing my two dublooms in but wouldnt it be easier to replace a frizzen than trying to reharden it, or is that a problem in finding a new part for a pistol.

Thanks

Dman

A replacement frizzen with very few exceptions needs to be hand fitted. Lots of points to be considered in the process. And after the hand fitting, it still needs to be hardened. They are usually not accurately enough made as to be truly interchangeable. A noteable exception is the Pedersoli pieces, which have tight manufacturing tolerances, along with a few other name brand guns. Definitely NOT a possibility with the India made pieces, as they are pretty much individually made.

>>>>>> Cascabel

[D.man]

so there is no easy way of doing then, gottcha

[Guest]

I bought my Blunderbuss from Callenish gunner, ....yah sure it's an India gun.. but from what I understand, he checks and fixes them before he sends them out... cool.... my Buss works.... good nough fer me... (Hey... I will continue to support Merchants that I've met and know...)

That said...

The India made guns are basically just "kits in the white"..... that means that you gotta go a lot of tinkering with them to make them work.....

I'm looking at my doglock, and the frizzen needs to be re-hardened, and the (dang) it's not the tumbler... it"s the part that the trigger hits, and releases the tumbler....not the sear..... Drat... I'll remember the name for it tomorrow (or right after I post this )

Anyway... that part... is all bent and rolled up in itself.... so plane "A" is to try to pound it out....

Plan "B" is to then grind and file it out....

I can fix it..... but it's goinna take some work.....

If my camera was working (note: the camera was not from India... ) I would take a picture to show what can go wrong with India made guns..... (but I can fix it...)

For the price..... I can deal with the problems.....

[Guest]

OK... I finaly got around to re-hardining the frizzen on my doglock....

I wraped the frizzen in a bunch of scrap leather, and put the bundle into a tin can, then I folded the open end flat, and over itself, sealing everything inside of the can... I then put the can into the center of a fire for one and a half hours... using tongs I remover everything and droped it into a bucket of water... after peeling the can off (it had burned through, so that part was easy)I put the frizzen back on, and tested it..... YAY.... SPARKS!

[Littleneckhalfshell]

I picked up a "Traditions- PA Pellet flintlock" at Gander Mt. back in January, (for deer hunting) I got it at a great price and a firefighter discount on top of the sale price, but I put a flint in it and, no spark, not one, checked the flint in one of my other flinters and it worked fine, tried it again in the Traditions, nope, and noticed that the flint was leaving cuts and dents in the face of the Frizzen. I knew I had a soft faced frizzen from reading on the Pub forum, Traditions is based in CT, but imports their guns from Spain I believe. Anyway I took it back to Gander Mt. and now am waiting to get my gun back with hopefully a working frizzen. I figured I could try to harden it myself, but, hey, it is a new gun and it was promoted as "ready to hunt, right out of the box" You would think that it would be something that they would check before sending it out. Anyway, hopefully it will get me a deer next year, this last year I borrowed my brother percussion and had two missfire events costing me my chance at a deer, one was a 4 point buck just thirty yards away, he didn't run until the cap went off but the gun failed to fire. :-( I have always trusted Flinters more, but never ran into this soft frizzen problem. I hope it is as easy as Patrick Hand said he did, I would worry that it might be too brittle and might snap.

[Guest]

I would worry that it might be too brittle and might snap.

That's why you don't leave it in too long..... an Hour to an hour and a half.

[Kenneth]

There is a video on youtube of what Patrick did to harden. Dont know the title, just search for "hardening a frizzen" and it should come up.

[oderlesseye]

The video link is here

My Question is where do you buy the proper spring clamp seen in the video?

[callenish gunner]

Most dealers carry "a main spring vise" they run between $14-30 and they work for both the external and internal springs for repairs and tune-ups Track of the Wolf I know you'll think I'm hawking for them but I recommend the one with the larger ears on the tightening bolt(easier to put pressure on)

[Guest]

Wot Callinish said.... much safer than using a pair of vice grips like I do... You can break a spring that way....

[Quartermaster James]

Well, what follows are the instructions I have been following with good result:

------------------------

Shucks! I just saved the following instructions a few days ago, but not thinking of keeping them for anything but my own personal use I neglected to note where I found them. I think it was over at that other muzzleloading forum. I hope I am not stepping on any toes reposting them here. I'd give credit to the original author if I had saved that info.

Also, I have used Kasenit on an Indian frizzen myself, just following the directions from TOTW. I had nothing hotter than a MAPP torch, and it worked fine. These instructions, however, are more comprehensive.

=================================

This is the way I reharden frizzens.

I like to hold the pivot area in visegrips with the face of the frizzen up. Heat the back of the frizzen to a bright red and spoon on the Kasnit.

Wrapping a piece of stiff wire, (coat hangar wire works pretty well) through the pivot hole and around the tail works ok too. Using the wire makes it a little easier to quench without messing with the visegrips. Just drop the whole thing into the bucket.

Heating the wire makes it easier to bend, BTW.

Like 'ol Hoot said, the longer the part is heated in contact with Kasnite, the better. IMHO, 15 minutes is minimum. I prefer 20 minutes +, and spoon a little Kasnite over the face of the frizzen every few minutes.

Have your quench bucket right there where you can drop the part into it without allowing the part to cool. Those parts can cool below the hardening temp pretty quickly if you gotta spend time putzing around getting to the quench bucket.

Since that frizzen on that brand of lock is probably mild steel, quench in luke warm water followed by heating to 300-350 degrees in Moma's oven for an hour.

Clean off any scale or crud before putting that part in the oven.

Use an accurate over thermometer to determine the oven temp since the thermocouple in most home ovens isn't very accurate.

It wouldn't hurt to run the torch round the pivot, even though the visegrips act as a heat sink of sorts.

SLOWLY apply the heat to the pivot and let the colors run to a dark staw or a little more .

The part can be quenched in water to stop the colors from running. This will not reharden the part.

I prefer to slightly temper the frizzen because IMHO, many are too hard and since steel absorbs carbon, a thin section, such as the pivot area around the screw hole could concevably become high carbon steel through the full thickness of that area. It's not likely, but possible if the part is heated in a carbruizing environment for a long enough time.

That thin section could possibly break under the repeated stress of firing if not tempered a bit.

Heating for 20 minutes in Kasnite will probably harden to a depth of roughly .010-.015 max, but I prefer to temper a bit anyway.

I may be over thinking this process, but I would rather over think than break a part.

[oderlesseye]

Thanx Callenish..I ordered one today..

[Guest]

Yah, a Main-spring vice is a goood thing to have.... I use vice grips, but know that I might mess everything up by doing so......

The smart way is to use the right tools......

[Kenneth]

Hardened my frizzen on my fowler Saturday at an event using the leather and can in the fire and other reenactors were shocked and amazed! An hour and 5 minutes and I'm throwing sparks like a welder. I use water pump pliers to pinch my main spring but then again my middle name is danger! From now on I'll harden every frizzen in this manner.

[D.man]

i tried it on my queen anne pistol it didnt work, nothing is sparking on it i even tried changing the flint just to make sure and still nothing. I might have to try the Kasenit.

[MarkG]

i tried it on my queen anne pistol it didnt work, nothing is sparking on it i even tried changing the flint just to make sure and still nothing. I might have to try the Kasenit.

The steel may not be good enough. An alternative to Kasenit is to spot-weld a thin piece of high-carbon steel to the face of the frizzen. I know someone who had very good luck doing this.

Mark

[Cascabel]

i tried it on my queen anne pistol it didnt work, nothing is sparking on it i even tried changing the flint just to make sure and still nothing. I might have to try the Kasenit.

An original Pedersoli Queen Anne frizzen should not have required any attention at all, unless incredibly badly worn out. Unlike the India made guns, I have never encountered one that needed re-hardening. If you get it hot enough, there should be sufficient carbon already in the steel without the addition of Kasenit.

>>>>> Cascabel

[D.man]

yes it is Pedersoli Queen Anne but i doesnt seem to spark. i dont know its not that old i would say like a year and half old and i dont use it alot, what could it be cascabel

[Cascabel]

yes it is Pedersoli Queen Anne but i doesnt seem to spark. i dont know its not that old i would say like a year and half old and i dont use it alot, what could it be cascabel

If you have attempted to re-harden it, you probably adversly effected the original heat treating. To what degree, I can't tell without examining it, but it can be put right without much trouble. The original problem is without a doubt lack of knowing how to operate a flintlock, or bad information, neither of which is your fault. There is a tremendous amount of bogus information and old-wives tales being passed around "out there", perpetuated by well meaning, but uninformed people. I wrote a series of in depth articles for No Quarter Given magazine a few years back that will tell you everything you need to know. PM me if you are interested in a copy.

>>>> Cascabel