Can o Worms

[Commodore Swab]

Obviously the leads in most movies are not PC but if one looks deeper into the other actors on the sidelines that don't typically have the spotlight on them how bad are they?

I am thinking of POTC III (yes I know its very far fetched but where else do you find asian pirates resembling PC?). I am also thinking of things such as the chrimson pirate (not the big buckle) and many men wearing RN jackets with little or nothing under. Personally I think hollywood is trying to be much more PC than they were in decades past

Bear in mind please before assaulting me that I am NOT a hollywood pirate, not a polyster pirate, and don't even own bucket boots. In fact I just bought countless yards of linen to start making PC gear (at $2.50 a yard how could I refuse). I have canvas (cotton) to make PC tent etc etc.

[William Brand]

My mind sees Historical Interpretation and Pop-Culture Interpretation completely differently. For example, when I see the sailors in Master and Commander I think 'clothing', but when I see the sailors in a POTC I think 'costumes'. It's the same for Renn Faires. When I see a guy in an Elizabethean collar and the finery of the age I think 'clothing', but when I see a guy in an open silk shirt and frippery I think 'costume'.

I never think of History versus Hollywood. My mind separates them instinctively into clothing or costumes.

EDIT: I must agree with the good fellow below. I would like to see a monmouth cap or two from time to time.

[Brit.Privateer]

From my observations, Hollywood has done some interesting thing with clothing for the Pirate period. More often than not, they borrow clothing and weaponry from the late 18th/early 19th century, especially for any Navy impressions. But, historically, if there was a primary color for the Navy during our time, it would actually be Grey, and Red (just look at the Admiralty Slop contracts), but the only problem here is that men in the Navy were not required to wear slop clothing put out by the government (though a lot of guys would have at least a few pieces of navy clothing it seems).

Another big point of issue in Hollywood are hats. Pirate impressions used to contain very few hats of any kind. In one of the earliest Pirate Films, "The Black Pirate," maybe 1 out of 40 or so pirates had any kind of felt hats (be it tricorn or round hat), the rest wore either a kerchief around the head in bandanna style or didn't wear anything on the head at all. And for those wearing felt hats, those that were not fitting to the early 18th century. In the 40s and 50s, the number of felt hats stayed almost the same in many cases, depending on the movie, some I would say going as far as 1 of 5 (but that was rarely, usually a lot less). It wasn't until recently that Hollywood altered course with hats, for it is in the last 10 years more or less that the ratio of pirates with felt hats went beyond the half way point. It wouldn't be that inaccurate to say that the Pirates of the Caribbean movies triggered the recent trend with so many pirates wearing tricorn hats. Even Cutthroat Island, which came 7 years before Pirates of the Caribbean, held that old ratio with very few felt hats (I can barely remember any hats in that movie at all, with most everyone wearing either a bandanna or nothing on their head). Historically speaking though, the tricorn, with the pirate movies these days, are over represented, and caps of any kind throughout hollywood movies has always been under represented.

[callenish gunner]

In most instances Hollywood costume designers use stereotypical "colonial" dress for their characters if it is after the Musketeer/ECW era. Those of us who have done much research at all know that there were differences and changes that occurred over the late 17th and throughout the 18th centuries....too frequently they use costumes that were made for other projects and retread them to save production costs figuring that most folks in the audience won't notice; and they are usually right.

Tricorns at sea aren't the most practical of headwear for working seamen. working in the rigging they would be distracting as they tend to blow off or get knocked off by standing rigging or by running lines .....working the yards I wouldn't want to be concerned about grabbing a hat blowing off my head ....a linen or woolen workman's cap or knit cap(Monmouth, Thrum or Felted Bonnet) would be much more practical as would the headwrap/bandanna style both to stay on and to keep the sweat out of your eyes...IMHO

...what I usually wear in most cases are wool hand block printed paisley scarves/kerchiefs or Scot's Bonnet.

[Tartan Jack]

From a film perspective . . .

Pirate movies are usually (always?) down the ladder in regards to accuracy priority.

Also, in the studio days, movies were planned to recycle costumes/clothing and all the props for 2-4 movies in sequence and kept on hand for future use. Basically, they were properly researched for the first, then used on the rest.

One example is "The Sea Hawks," which was the second costume run after "The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex." The sets, costumes, and as much as possible was reused from "Elizabeth and Essex" in making "Sea Hawks." The good part is that for costume and set colors, all one need to do is to compare the 2 films.

Now, the costumes for "Elizabeth and Essex" were intended to be fairly historically accurate. (What do you think about that Foxe?)

As "Sea Hawks" was the same period, they should be decently accurate as well, though land costumes were used at sea for less accuracy.

The costumes were stocked/warehoused, as well as the ships, were then reused for other later films.

For lower budget "crank-em-out"-type studio films, even expensive effects and scenes were lifted directly out of other previous films in the studio vaults. The ones filmed for Sea Hawks and Black Swan appear repeatedly in later movies as "stock" footage of sea battles and is re-edited to fit.

How is that related to Captain Twill, you may ask . . .

Intended accuracy and accordingly general historical accuracy for ANY pirate-film (and other genre films) are largely and directly tied to how far down the ranking they are in priority for the studio.

Some has studio historians making very accurate costumes, at least to the vision of the director/producer.

Others manage to get a pretty decent set from studio warehouses (and later, costume warehouses-> after the studios sold off their in-house stocks), and a director makes a semi-decent attempt to use them accurately.

Other times (and MOST of the time for pirate films), the accuracy isn't as important as enough to get the "period feel" and keeping under a budget. Sometimes, the director knows little of accuracy and just does whatever "feels right" . . .

(Those who WORK for the present system, please feel free to correct the above. I am working from the 1920s studio system birth, through the "golden age" of studios. their downfall. and replacement by the latter form of studios that birthed whatever you want to call the studios today. Please forgive any over-generalizations.)

Result:

The accuracy varies widely and probably should be looked at as:

- Fairly accurate, though still a movie

- Highly historically compromised, but kinda tried

- Built more on myth than reality, but tried to be consistent (kinda where PotC would/should be)

- Used whatever was on hand and cheap

- What the heck was THAT?

Or put it this way (for Capt. Twill):

Which movies are pretty accurate? What did they mess up on?

Which ones are intended to be kinda accurate, but are highly compromised? How so?

[gunner Gordon]

Tartan Jack, My experiance in the industry pretty much follows what you are saying, but there is one large factor not addressed. The ego of the individuals in the production. I was retained some time back to inspect and recomend for live firing some reprtoduction guns off of a ship to be used in a movie. My job was to be the developement of period live ammunition, fire it and recuord the sound for the sound track. A major project in itself since they wanted all types of projectiles and the various sized guns as well.Not only was i doing the math on that, but the firing, in my opinion, needed to be over water to be properly done. The sound of guns over water,to my ears , is quite different than the sound over land. Several weeks int this the project was ended because the shipboard FX person wanted to handle everything to do with the guns. He sused a battery of 105s at a military base on a range in the woods. I believe the authenticity suffered, but that was second to percieved career moves.

[Guest]

Tricorns at sea aren't the most practical of headwear for working seamen. working in the rigging they would be distracting as they tend to blow off or get knocked off by standing rigging or by running lines .....working the yards I wouldn't want to be concerned about grabbing a hat blowing off my head

But by cocking the hat... they don't blow off of your head as easily. (they do stay on yer noggin so much better than a flat brimmed hat... or Cavalier/Musketeer style... ask Mission... ) ......OK... knit caps do work better.... but it's still so much more fun calling them "Cocked Hats" because it's a period term... and it sounds kinda dirty.......

[Tartan Jack]

True.

I meant to add egos too. Thanks for fixing the oversight.

Egos are another major reason for inaccuracies in movies. Someone, i doing their job, wants to do it a certain way and the heck wit h whether it was done historically or not is irrelevant (even if trying to make a documentary, much less a film or TV). That can be director, actor, set or prop designer, or any of the hundred hundred-ish people who affect the production. There are a HUGE number of people involved in any production and a gigantic number in a film, just look at the credits.

The industry is packed with egos . . .

(Present company on the P-Pub, by and large, excluded!)

Edited May 26, 2009 by Tartan Jack

[Tartan Jack]

Tricorns at sea aren't the most practical of headwear for working seamen. working in the rigging they would be distracting as they tend to blow off or get knocked off by standing rigging or by running lines .....working the yards I wouldn't want to be concerned about grabbing a hat blowing off my head

But by cocking the hat... they don't blow off of your head as easily. (they do stay on yer noggin so much better than a flat brimmed hat... or Cavalier/Musketeer style... ask Mission... ) ......OK... knit caps do work better.... but it's still so much more fun calling them "Cocked Hats" because it's a period term... and it sounds kinda dirty.......

For a landlubber comparison . . .

Where a broadbrimmed hat on a really brisk day, esp. the kind on a beach . . . it flops into your face and tries to turn into a frisbee . . .

Now, put on a cocked hat . . . it stays in NICELY! People just look at you kinda weird for wearing a hat that looks really odd in a modern context.

Let's bring back the cocked hat!

Knit caps blend in . . .

People still use them for the very same reason they did centuries ago. A practical piece that hasn't gone away.

- Most people have no idea that they are old at all.

[Mission]

Tricorns at sea aren't the most practical of headwear for working seamen. working in the rigging they would be distracting as they tend to blow off or get knocked off by standing rigging or by running lines .....working the yards I wouldn't want to be concerned about grabbing a hat blowing off my head

But by cocking the hat... they don't blow off of your head as easily. (they do stay on yer noggin so much better than a flat brimmed hat... or Cavalier/Musketeer style... ask Mission... )

Yep. I love my Patrick Hand original hat, but you cannot wear that thing in a medium breeze.

Hollywood is all about style and (almost) never about substance. Watch some of the alleged History Channel productions and see how many times you can count the places where they modified, amplified or simplified the historical facts to make sure it "works" - ie. the first half hour ends with an unresolved conflict, or there is a romantic involvement or such like.

You can learn a lot by watching "Making of" and voice-over commentaries. They choose clothing that makes the character stand out (Jack Sparrow for example) or not (British soldiers in identical red costumes). The Brit costumes are also an example of shorthand. I've read here about British uniforms in all sorts of different colors, but American audiences would be confused by pirate era soldiers in anything but red with white piping unless it was explained to them - a story complication most movies don't want to bother with. So the shorthand version is that all British soldiers wear red uniforms with white piping - nothing needs to be explained. Etc.

You can't really blame them. Most people don't go to movies to see historical accuracy - they go to see something cool. (I would argue something similar for the History Channel - except it would go more like, "Most people don't watch the HC to learn about history, they watch to learn something cool they can use to impress people with in conversations.") So they are essentially providing what folks will pay to see.

Besides, as we've discussed here (ad nauseum), folks who actually do want to be historically accurate can't even pin the facts down very well.