silas thatcher Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) capt. sterling, i noticed the unusually large pocket flaps on your coat... they just look odd to me ( keep in mind how much i know about clothing fashion during goap ) was that style not as common as the smaller flaps that i am familiar with, or were both styles fairly common ?? sorry for the brief interruption... Edited May 20, 2009 by silas thatcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Pocket flaps seem to be as greatly varied as their sizes, as you can see in some of the pictures... I took the pockets on the gray coat from a 1708 painting... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) and thanks to Foxe... this lovely specimen and feel free to move the pocket flaps to their own thread... Edited May 21, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 and feel free to move the pocket flaps to their own thread... Thanks for all the great images, and the suggestion of it's own thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBrower Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Some fabulous images, yet again Captain! Pockets just so happen to be a fascination of mine (strange, I know)... Most of the pockets would have been functioning, correct? Cook and Seamstress to the Half Moon Marauders Lady Brower's Treasures, Clothing and other treasures Hell Hath No Fury like the Wrath of a Woman... No that's it. She doesn't need a reason. www.myspace.com/halfmoonmarauders www.myspace.com/faerienoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 From what we can tell, aye. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jib Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Good Captain, what name would you assign to that style of coat(s) in the pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Ooo... new outfit I'd not seen b'fore! I admit, I'm a tad baffled on the detail - inside and out - of the vertical pockets. I've not see many upclose images on it. So, ummm... what is it's basic structure and how do they function as pockets? The horizontal flap is easy to get the jist of. Who's done the vertical pockets? ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) I have done numerous vertical pockets. They aren't any harder than horizontal ones, although they do need some sort of flap to cover them and keep them closed or the buttons...as in below.... and I highly recommend not carrying anything of value, such as wallet, car keys or cash in vertical pockets... breeches pockets are far safer bet for stowing such items if you must carry them on your person during an event. Edited May 22, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Good Captain, what name would you assign to that style of coat(s) in the pictures? Jib, not sure I understand exactly what you want here... do you mean Frock coat as opposed to sailor's jacket, or the "names" of some of the originals to google them... For instance... this is known as the Manchester Coat(at least amongst reenactors)...as it comes from the Manchester museum This would be considered a Frock Coat Edited May 22, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jib Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Good Captain, what name would you assign to that style of coat(s) in the pictures? Jib, not sure I understand exactly what you want here... do you mean Frock coat as opposed to sailor's jacket, or the "names" of some of the originals to google them... For instance... this is known as the Manchester Coat(at least amongst reenactors)...as it comes from the Manchester museum This would be considered a Frock Coat Yes I just wondered if these images are of what was considered a frock coat or justacourps (spelling?) or perhaps something else. In our modern world if you saw me wearing a jean jacket you could call it a coat but might refer to it differently. Just wanted to use the proper term. And Sir, your garb is wonderful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) justaucorps a fitted, knee-length coat, characterized by wide turned-back cuffs and stiff flared skirts, worn esp. by men in the 17th and 18th centuries. Also called justicoat. Origin: 1650–60; < F juste au corps fitting to the body When you knock it down, justaucorps and frock coat really mean the same thing, the former being the French term, the later more English... some folks in the hobby refer to the older style as pictured in Waugh page 59 as the justaucorps usually just to distinguish it from the later coats with the fuller skirts... and thank you Jib for the compliment. Edited May 30, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Sterling... by any chance.... could the verticle pockets also be just openings in the frock where a hand can slip discretly under to a waistcoat that has a functional pocket or some fob that holds something of value or something else? Like some mantuas and gowns that have those openings in the overskirting to descretly slip through the slits in the side of the petticoat to the pockets? Something like that? Would almost make more sense than putting something in verticle pockets which can lose items swiftly. Just a thought. Shall have to see if I can experiment on an outfit with verticle pockets of cheap fabric (I've more than I can handle and none of it I can really use as none of it is natural fibers). BTW... is that brown justacorp frock lined? or not? It doesn't seem lined from the sleeves but the body of it does. Be I wrong in this assumption? ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Well maybe if someone would have gotten off his lazy arse and seen the Manchester coat maybe he could have answered that question. But in my defense it wasn't on display at the time I could have gone to see it. Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callenish gunner Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Just wondering Capt. what the date is on the one engraving of the "English Admiral at Sea"? Seems the fellow has a mustache and beard. Edited May 31, 2009 by callenish gunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I believe the date is 1703 or 1708, don't have the book here but will check after I get back from teaching and give you the exact, but it is early 1700s. I have posted the fellow before due to the mustache. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I believe the date is 1703 or 1708, don't have the book here but will check after I get back from teaching and give you the exact, but it is early 1700s. I have posted the fellow before due to the mustache. Update edit... right then... The English Admiral is an illustration by the Dutch artist Caspar Luyken, drawn some time between the years 1699, when he arrived in Germany to help Christoph Weigel of Nuremberg illustrate a number of books and 1703 when the plates were etched in copper. Neu-eroffnete Welt- Galleria was a collection of 100 costume plates etched by Luyken, the son of engraver Jan Luyken. Honestly tis hard to tell if that is truly supposed to represent a mustache or not, as several other etchings have lines that could either be 'staches or some sort of shadowing... and there is definitely no beard. Edited May 31, 2009 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Sterling... by any chance.... could the verticle pockets also be just openings in the frock where a hand can slip discretly under to a waistcoat that has a functional pocket or some fob that holds something of value or something else? Like some mantuas and gowns that have those openings in the overskirting to descretly slip through the slits in the side of the petticoat to the pockets? Something like that? Would almost make more sense than putting something in verticle pockets which can lose items swiftly. Just a thought. Shall have to see if I can experiment on an outfit with verticle pockets of cheap fabric (I've more than I can handle and none of it I can really use as none of it is natural fibers). BTW... is that brown justacorp frock lined? or not? It doesn't seem lined from the sleeves but the body of it does. Be I wrong in this assumption? ~Lady B No, these were actual pockets... honestly, trying to get one's hands through coat skirt slits to a pocket in the waistcoat, especially at that level, just is a nightmare. They don't stay put like a woman's petticoats and pockets. That's why the vertical pockets seem to always be shown with buttons or some elaborate flap. From experience, keep the bottom buttons fastened, and you are good to go... From Historical Fashion in Detail, The 17th and 18th Centuries by Avril Hart and Susan North. pg 96 Pockets such as these (the very narrow, horizontal, open pockets shown on page 97) were intended to remain open, and were therefore furnished with purely decorative buttonholes and buttons. Other style had functional button fastenings to prevent the pocket from gaping open. The shape and position of pockets were experimented with in the late 17th century as tailors continued to develop the new fashion of a closely fitted knee-length coat and waistcoat. There were two styles of pocket, a vertical one with an open slit, placed either singly or in pairs of each skirt front just below the waistline, or horizontal ones, which sometimes had narrow flaps and were superseded by the horizontal style: "Yet he would have it in the ancient mode, with little buttons, round cuffs, narrow skirts, and pockets within two inches of the bottom." (Ned Ward The London Spy 1689)" According to Waugh, pg. 55 There was also a great variety of pocket shapes,their decoration being repeated on the cuffs, but c.1700 pockets became conventional and varied little throughout the eighteenth century. They had scalloped flaps and were always set on a level with the top of the side pleats. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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