Ship surgeons

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

I'm all excited. I bought my first two pieces of antique medical equipment. Small, but still thrilling! I got a late 18th C Lancet and a cupping jar. Made a trip to Gettysburg and got caught up in the moment!

[Animal]

That's great, Will. Where did you get it? My wife is developing her persona around it. She used to be a nurse in real life until the various illness about caught up with her.

Animal

[hitman]

Sorry about the delayed post but I haven't looked back in this thread for a while now. In answer to your request Boot strap I must admit this answer will be woefully inadequate as is generally the case with me I didn't keep track of exactly where I came across that particular piece of info. I do however remember it was from a history channel program on mental illness. I went back and checked some of my notes (also woefully inadequate) and basically found out this much. The use of ones looks as a method of Diagnosis was used most in the Medieval time period but continued to hold sway both with the general population and the lower classes of Surgeons until the late 17th and early 18th centuries. The more enlighten class of Doctors had through that time period varying opinions and methods of the cause and treatment of mental illness. While DocF225 is right in the main there are a few shining examples of better tretment for the mentally ill. I quess how enlightened your doc is is the defineing chacteristic of what type of diagnosses and treatment he gives. A few web links on the topic are as follows,

http://www.ktb.net/~psycrime/pc-324.htm

http://www.mncdd.org/parallels/three/4.html

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566...al_Illness.html

I apologize for my lack of specific info and source material but most of my research is done either as a hobby or for my writing neither of witch require the documentation necessary for re enactors.

[Grinning Gunner]

a good book about early Drs and Pharmacist (1600'S)

" Batavia's Graveyard" Its a Dutch East Indiaman taken over by a Phamacist (true story ) and gives alot of background into him and his trade.

[capnwilliam]

I'm all excited. I bought my first two pieces of antique medical equipment.

Where'd you get yer stuff from, Bill?

I ned to start thinking seriously if I want to start incorporating a medical /pharmacist aspect into a persona. I had hopes that we were going to have a strong Baratarian cannon crew fer the Battle of New Orleans reenactment but the blokes don't seem to want to get together fer practice. At the rate we're going, I think I'm going to end up lone-wolfing it; maybe play a local pharmacist or doctor who brings his hunting rifle to the battle.

Capt. William

[hitman]

I saw a bit on book TV (cspan2 during the weekend) about a book entitled "The Great Plague". I wasn't able to watch all of it but I did catch this little facto. It turns out that one of the most likely occupations for a plague victim was a sail maker. Interestingly enough the town that had the highest mortality rate was a sail making town and the second most listed occupation in the parish death records (Note as I recall only one of the parishes continued to note occupation during the height of the plague) was cloth worker. Now according to "flea experts" the most likely reason for this is that fleas prefer to travel on lighter colored cloth (kinda like oh say white sails). Now although I haven't read it yet the authors put on a good show while on TV and I'll be purchasing the book next paycheck. For those that are interested the title is again The Great Plague subtitle The Story of London's Most Deadly Year written by the husband and wife team of A. Lloyd Moote and Dorothy C. Moote. (He is a 17th century historian and she is a microbiologist.) Here is the amazon link.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/080...7123577-5988741

[Calico Jack]

Whew! Don't check for a few days and ... BUSY topic!

Most of my re-enacting for the Maritime Museum here spirals in and out around a centre of Naval Surgeon around 1812. Late in the day for most of the Pirate re-enactors here, but scurvy had just been 'cured' officially in Great Britain and the United States. Surgery still involved surgeons, rather than doctors, or even untrained men if you weren't a navy ship but rather a privateer or merchantman, and combat wounds include Splinters - the worst of all.

A gruesome and interesting subject.

[Tempest Fitzgerald]

This is a very interesting subject. It is amazing how the title Ship's Doctor / Surgeon can be a very grey area in history. The title not neccessarily meaning that the bearer had any true formal academic training as is required in the modern era that we live in now. Even in the British Navy, the medicine man was not always of proper training in a medical sense. A ship could have easily been stuck with someone who used to ply his trade as a butcher.

On another note. There were actually two forms of the Black Death, Pnuematic and Bubonic. There has been a great amount of research into historicly recorded survivors who were exposed to areas known to be rabid with the Plague, yet never contracted it fully and lived through their bout with the illness. A curiosity to modern medicine as to wether or not those individuals carried some form of natural resistance within their DNA making them immune.

[hitman]

One of the topics discussed in this book (at least from what I gather in their presentation) is this immunity as I recall they linked it to a certian chemical in ones skin that if present repels flea's.

[Sjöröveren]

I saw a show on the History Channel a year ago or so about the Plague. They made some link between ergot poisoning and Plague immunity if I remember correctly. Could be that there were 2 shows and now I'm combining them in my mind. Anyone else recall seeing this show/shows?

[Calico Jack]

RELATED QUESTION:

[question removed for period relevance.]

Calico Jack

Maritime Museum of the Atlantic

[Misson]

I had the opportunity to tour the ship from the movie "Master and Commander" and one of the displays was of the doctor's cabin. He had many of his medicines in vials in a pouch, for easy transport I suppose.

I really liked the doctor character in M&C. Combined with some references to surgeons being shanghaied by pirate crews whenever the opportunity presented itself, I decided to play a surgeon. I'm going to pick half dozen of the most interesting (and naturally practical) instruments on the Godwin page to start off with. (It's too expensive to go gangbusters...especially since I'm still exploring this character concept.)

However, I have a question. Is a pouch period correct for GaoP? (M&C takes place later than that.) Does anyone know what sort of pouch it would be? I'd carry a chest but...what a pain in the neck it would be to haul around with you, you know?

[Calico Jack]

Is a pouch period correct for GaoP? (M&C takes place later than that.) Does anyone know what sort of pouch it would be? I'd carry a chest but...what a pain in the neck it would be to haul around with  you, you know?

Bad news in one regard - Barber surgeons were using chests of medicaments as far back as Mary Rose, in the early 1500s. See http://www.maryrose.org/visiting/tour5.htm for an image of some of the medicine jars and tools. Good news in another regard - those jars and tools should not be too difficult for you to acquire or recreate.

[Misson]

Yeah, but that's just one example. Surely in the hundreds of ship's surgeons some of them may have used something to create a portable kit. (Or maybe not - perhaps all surgery was confined to the location on the ship where they were performed. It's hard to re-focus your perspective when we've had portable medical units for so long.)

From another site I found much smaller vials that are quite different than those pictured on that link. I'm sure the approaches to equipment were as varied as were the people and countries involved in sailing the Caribbean islands.

[blackjohn]

I think this is the quickest web page I ever slapped together...

Our Chyrgeon working under fire.

He's got a great impression. In fact, it's just the one you are talking about doing, the pressed doctor.

Feh. Lunchtime is over. Back to work!

[Calico Jack]

Surely in the hundreds of ship's surgeons some of them may have used something to create a portable kit. (Or maybe not - perhaps all surgery was confined to the location on the ship where they were performed. It's hard to re-focus your perspective when we've had portable medical units for so long.)

Army surgeons would likely have had want of something somewhat portable, but I don't see that maritime surgeons would much have felt need. A surgery is not particularly portable, but men are. Rather than take the surgery up on deck, bring the wounded down to the cockpit... And how often would you be wandering off ship so far that you would need a "portable surgery" instead of that on ship? [Only, alas, when re-enacting]. For re-enactments, I usually stretch history so far as to allow for a quarantine/surgery tent ashore [cinematic equivilant being the self-surgery displayed in the film "Master and Commander: Far Side of the World], which gives an excuse to have a medical chest and surgery set up off-ship, even if admittedly not the best excuse. That seems to work, and gives an opportunity to explain how it would rarely have been used [the temporary surgery ashore would rarely have been used, not the quarantine tent, which would have].

Bleeding bowl and lancet appropriate to your period would be quite portable, 'though, I suppose.

[capnwilliam]

Wow! Glad to see that this old thread was resurrected!

Glad also to be able to recount that our cannon crew is doing a lot better than I was forced to indicate back in my November 2004 message.

Capt. William

[BriarRose Kildare]

I am so glad that this thread has been resurrected. I am very much interested in the medical aspects of the time period and the use of Surgeons upon ships. I am starting to put together and apothocary's kit in the hopes of using it for re-enactments. I do have experience in the medical field and I am hoping to expand upon it.

I recently just started a thread on Plagues, Viruses and Diseases. I am hoping that there are some out there that are as interested in this as I am. I may seem moribid, but I enjoy learning the about the different epidemics as well as the medica treatments that were given for wounds and such.

Are there any books that can be suggested that I study for this topic on surgeons? It would be greatly appreciated if some one could tell me.

what books are the best to get since at the moment my funds are limited. I am hoping to put several books on me Christmas/Yule wish list.

[Calico Jack]

WOODALL, JOHN. The surgeon's mate, or military & domestique surgery... London: Printed by Rob. Young, for Nicholas Bourne, 1639

This book is your first and foremost, I think, and is so whether doing GAoP, Rev War, or even 1805 [it is a classic!].

Trouble is, a cheap repro is a hard thing to find [if you find one, do let me know!]. Even other forums bemoan that the Surgeon's Mate has yet to make it into Project Gutenberg.

http://www.piratebrethren.com/forum/viewto...topic.php?t=434

Reconstructing History have suggested that they're hoping to produce an affordable, if not actually cheap, edition in repro, but no sign yet. [alas]

[EDIT: a more comprehensive bibliography on the subject has already been made by someone else, and can be found here:

http://www.cindyvallar.com/surgeonresources.html

- You'll note there are a few issues of No Quarter Given that are of interest, and they include bibliographies themselves. Most books and articles will be looking either early or late for this period, but you should be able to cobble some good research together. I do recommend Brown, Stephen R. Scurvy: How a Surgeon, a Mariner, and a Gentleman Solved the Greatest Medical Mystery of the Age of Sail. New York: St. Martin’s Press, 2003; although Lind does not perform his experiment for a couple of decades past the GAoP, it is a good overview book of Scurvy, what it is, the many treatment theories, and such. Plus it is quite readable. Little, Benerson. The Sea Rover’s Practice. Washington, DC: Potomac Books, 2005, is an ex-navy seal and reenactor; text must be taken with a grain of salt as "experimental recreation," but it is also a good read. The medical information is a small fragment however. The Mary Rose museum's "Barber Surgeon" pages are of interest, 'though Tudor in focus.

[Rats]

Having originally looked into a medical impression, when 1st becoming involved in GAoP, I will also have to attest, the Brethern's surgeon and also Doc Miller from Lock house, offer two of the most impressive surgical impressions I have ever seen.

Their knowledge and their impressive collection of equipment, as well as their general disposition and character make perfect the impression of the common practissioner of medicine.

Very impressive and congradulations on the good work!!

With Black John's approval I also have some pictures from last years November Lockhouse, featuring said surgical display and gentlemen?

[Misson]

The Sutler of Mount Misery, G. Gedney Godwin, offers 18th century medical instruments.

http://www.gggodwin.com/

One thing I'll say about Godwin...they're like elephants. I ordered some lancets from them several months ago and they all of a sudden arrived today. At least they didn't bill them until this month. It makes me wonder about that fleem I ordered right after PiP...

[Matusalem]

"chirugion"

[Misson]

WOODALL, JOHN. The surgeon's mate, or military & domestique surgery... London: Printed by Rob. Young, for Nicholas Bourne, 1639

This book is your first and foremost, I think, and is so whether doing GAoP, Rev War, or even 1805 [it is a classic!].

Trouble is, a cheap repro is a hard thing to find [if you find one, do let me know!].  Even other forums bemoan that the Surgeon's Mate has yet to make it into Project Gutenberg.

How about a free repro? The best way I've found to get a copy of the Surgeon's Mate is through the on-line database Early English Books Online. Most larger universities have access to it. Bring a memory stick and you can download your own .pdf copy. Many universities have free guest researcher computers available, although you should probably call ahead to make sure. (I suggest you say you're a researcher, otherwise you might wind up at a time-limited, grubby public terminal with limited access rights.)

However, I have my doubts that the Surgeon's Mate is the end-all be-all period sea surgical reference. it was just the first sea medicine reference in print - even then it was only given to East India Merchantmen surgeons; it wasn't for sale from what I've read. Woodall's book came out in 1617, was reprinted in 1639 or so with the third and last re-printing in 1655. The fact that it wasn't reprinted after that suggests to me it would have been more difficult to get after the 1680s or so.

Certainly it would have been on some ships and would have been traded back and forth, but it's by the frequency of reprints that the more scholarly articles seem to judge the time period a surgical book is used. (Joan Druett makes much of Woodall in her book. I wonder what resources she has that suggest that it would have been used as late as the 19th century as she hints.)

Another sea medical reference to consider that is closer to period which is available through the same database:

John Moyle's Chirurgus marinus, 1693

While it's not as comprehensive as Woodall, it was available closer to period and has much plainer language for sea surgeons, who were often newly minted and may have appreciated the simpler language. It went through several reprints as well.

In addition, there are many other period surgical books that could very easily have been used that were printed closer to the GAoP. Some other good period surgical references not specifically for the sea, yet still interesting and likely to have been brought on ship are available through the same database:

James Cooke (former sea surgeon), Mellificium chirurgiæ Or, The marrow of chirurgery, 1648 - note - this was reprinted at least six times I've found (and probably more) all the way through 1760, thus must have been very popular.

James Cooke, Supplementum chirurgiæ or The supplement to the marrow of chyrurgerie, 1655

John Shirley, A short compendium of chirurgery, 1673

Thomas Willis, Five treatises: 1. Of urines, 2. Of the accension of the blood, 3. Of musculary motion, 4. The anatomy of the brain, 5. The description and use of the nerves, 1681

Thomas Willis, Dr. Willis's practice of physick: being all the medical works of that renowned and famous physician, 1681

Richard Wiseman (former sea surgeon), A treatise of wounds, 1676 (I believe much of this is contained in his following work)

Richard Wiseman, Eight chirurgical treatises, 1696

James Yonge (former sea surgeon), Currus triumphalis, è terebinthô, 1679

James Yonge, Wounds of the brain proved curable, 1686

Here are some other good references if you want to learn about the surgeon and his tools that are also available on that database. Some of them are from well before period like Woodall:

Thomas Bonham, The chyrugians closet: or, an antidotarie chyrurgicall, 1630

Stephen Bradwell, Helps for suddain accidents endangering life, 1639

William Clowes (former sea surgeon), A profitable and necessarie booke of obseruations, for all those that are burned with the flame of gun powder, &c., 1588 - this is considered a classic because of the description of the flap method of amputation, but it wasn't reprinted after 1596, so buyer beware

Nicholas Culpeper, Two treatises, the first of blood-letting and the diseases to be cured thereby, the second of cupping and scarifying, and the diseases to be cured thereby, 1683

Randle Holme, The academy of armory, 1688 (This book was reprinted in 1972 as well and your library can probably get it for you.)

Ambroise Pare, Mikrokosmographia: A description of the body of man. Together vvith the controuersies thereto belonging, 1545, translated to English in 1615

Jacques Guillemeau, The Frenche chirurgerye, or all the manualle operations of chirurgerye, 1597 (Based on Pare's work)

Johannes Scultetus, The Chyrurgeons store-house, 1655

And that's about half of the surgical books I've found so far! In addition to general surgical books from period, there are a great many more on specific topics like VD, eye surgery and so forth.

Churgeon, chyrugon, chirurgeon, chirirgon, surgeon, sturgeon...it'll give you a headache after awhile. Two words for period spelling: phonetic and random.

[Misson]

Yeah, but that's just one example. Surely in the hundreds of ship's surgeons some of them may have used something to create a portable kit. (Or maybe not - perhaps all surgery was confined to the location on the ship where they were performed. It's hard to re-focus your perspective when we've had portable medical units for so long.)

From another site I found much smaller vials that are quite different than those pictured on that link. I'm sure the approaches to equipment were as varied as were the people and countries involved in sailing the Caribbean islands.

Heh. I've sure learned a lot since then! Frequently, ship's surgeons set up tents at landfall to treat the wounded when no other buildings were available. They did indeed have portable kits, particularly for bleeding, which was carried out whereever they could. There are several examples of pocket kits from period. (If the me now could only have been around for the me then.)

[Calico Jack]

How about a free repro?

That, Misson, is the very best kind [grins], and the find of the variety of texts the same, is even more welcome. In your debt, with thanks.

As a note, Geoffrey Keynes [in the Journal of the Royal College of Physicians] also thought Woodall's text was influential beyond the confines of the EIC, and also that it influenced similar texts later [as have others]. That said, things in popular print during your chosen period are the best sources, and thank you again Misson for finding sources equally accessible.