Ship surgeons

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

A ships Surgeon in the Royal Navy was not necessarily a medical doctor, more often than not, he was someone who had served an apprenticeship and passed a oral exam given by Surgeon's Hall in London by the Company of Barber-Surgeon after which a warrant was issued by the Sick & Hurt Board. If overseas, he could be examined by the Surgeon of the Fleet, or a physician and senior surgeon of the hospital and three surgeons of the fleet. He would then serve as a surgeon's mate for a period before being appointed full surgeon.

Surgeons, at the start of the war were required to supply their own equipment and drugs. Later, in 1804 all drugs were supplied by the navy. They also were not allowed initially to go on half pay in 1793, but then senior surgeons were allowed half pay status. By 1805 things had changed substantially and all surgeons enjoyed half pay privileges.

The surgeon was in charge of the sick and hurt seamen on board ship. He performed surgical operation when necessary, administer medicines and administered to the patients. He was also responsible for the general health of the ships crew. Hospital Ships and some First Rates would also carry a Physician. These were medical doctors who were the best the navy had to offer and their status was recognised by substantially higher pay: All surgeons and physicians were forbidden from having private patients.

Seamen assigned to assist the Surgeon were initially called Surgeon's Mates, until 1805 when they became Assistant Surgeon. They were members of the Midshipmen's Mess. There was up to 5 qualified mates (in 1793) on a ship depending on the size and could be a larger number of unqualified mates.. All ships had at least 1 qualified mate, the 4th and 5th rates having 2, the 3rd rates had 3, 2nd rates had four and 1st rates had 5 mates. By 1815, that had been cut down to a maximum of 3 qualified mates.

http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=barber...&yc=59102&icp=1

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

Also, if you're interested here is a good article on the history of the Surgeon General starting with "The Father of Surgery" 16th century barber-surgeon Ambroise Pare.

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...2_3_1_36-39.pdf

[Red Maria]

Also, if you're interested here is a good article on the history of the Surgeon General starting with "The Father of Surgery" 16th century barber-surgeon Ambroise Pare.

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent...2_3_1_36-39.pdf

I know Pare. I have a reprint packed away of his collected works.

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

The seventeenth century pharmacopia in "Rough Medicine" was that of John Woodall. Woodall was a contemporary of Harvey, one of the Masters or Governors of the Company of Barber-Surgeons, a military surgeon in Lord Willoughby's regiment in 1591 and later first surgeon-general to the East India Company in 1612 . He found the surgeons and supplied every ship with their Ship Surgeon's Chest. (my icon is a repleca of the chest) He also wrote the "The Surgeon's Mate", or military & domestique surgery which was included in the chest, basically as an instruction manual. He wrote to the young inexperienced surgeons in language they could understand. It was written so well that it ended up in homes across England as a reference guide. The Viaticum contains "surgical instructions intended chiefly for the better curing of wounds made by gunshot."

"Rough Medicine" is excellent!

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

Where did you find the collection on Pare??

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

I've read it this way:

*The title doctor did not become commonly associated with medical types until close to 1800.

*Originally surgeons and physicians were seperated by the law of the Church that forbade a physician to shed blood.

Physicians, some of which also performed surgery (but not often as they were above manual labor ) , were college educated (studying philosophy and learning in Latin ) earning a degree and were considered scholarly individuals preferring to diagnose, observe urine and gather together to have philosophical discussions. They prescribed medication and usually were very hands off. Their patients were always wealthy or noblemen.

*You might notice how many of the notable medical folk in history were (barber)Surgeons and not physicians.

The Barber-Surgeons were skilled workers who trained by apprenticeship (7 years) to perform surgical and other medical/dental/barber functions. They were the common man's medical man. Young apprentices often trained under veteran barber-surgeons some in hospitals like St. Thomas or St. Bartholomew, some in regular practice and others in the army/navy.

Apothecaries also apprenticed (7 yrs I think as well) and could prescribe medication.

..Sorry if this was already discussed.

[Red Maria]

Where did you find the collection on Pare??

Bought it at the California International Antiquarian Book Faire a few years back. I can't remember which dealer it was. I was working for one of the dealers so I got a discount on it. Try www.bookfinder.com

or www.abe.com

and you maybe will find a copy.

[Paisley]

just catching up on this subject...seems very interesting and mayhaps one persona that i might be able to pull off a little easier than some other positions on the ship. (i'm a licensed veterinary technician by day)

i still have a few more questions...so did ship surgeons get paid 1 share or 1 1/2 shares? was their status above the crew???

keep the info coming guys

red maria---are you still offering up that photocopy?

[Red Maria]

just catching up on this subject...seems very interesting and mayhaps one persona that i might be able to pull off a little easier than some other positions on the ship. (i'm a licensed veterinary technician by day)

i still have a few more questions...so did ship surgeons get paid 1 share or 1 1/2 shares? was their status above the crew???

keep the info coming guys

red maria---are you still offering up that photocopy?

Pay on naval ship was pretty low. On pirare ships typically 1 1/2 shares.

[Sjöröveren]

Came across this site tonight quite by accident, regarding Royal Navy Surgeon William Loney. It has more information than I could even begin to recount. Biographies of dozens of RN captains, members of the Admiralty, and many others. Ships logs, maps, photos, scans of commissions and warrants, it just goes on forever! Pour yourself a cuppa something, and plan on spending an hour poking around.

[Zorg]

a monstrosic fumigation chamber that wasn't popular and died out as quick as it came

possibly at the same rate as the patients....

[PyratePhil]

Be it worth whatever-

In my "real" life, I'm an acupuncturist/Chinese herbalist/taiji and qigong-type of fella...

I'd often thought of getting some gear together to portray a doctor, but the big drawback, of course, is that I could only sign on to a junk...

[Captain Goodwench]

This topic is perfect, and I'm sure I'll find some answers from you all here!

I'm developing a story wherein a character, a young girl, is prone to epileptic type fits brought on by staring into the flickering of any open flame. I say sort of like epilepsy (this is fiction), but more like possession, and her animal spirit (in her case a dragon) takes violent control over her. The story is set in a pre-technological society, roughly equivalent to early medieval Europe (northern), and what I'm asking is

are you aware of any herbs or other remedies that would control epileptic seizures?

[the Royaliste]

Hmm, Belladonna, Laudinum, rum....soundin' like a night aboard ship.........

[Red Maria]

For those interested in women healers this book might be of interest:

The Healer's Calling: Women & Medicine in Early New England by Rebecca S. Tannenbaum

Ithaca N.Y. ; London : Cornell University Press, 2002.

ISBN 0801438268

[Iron Bess]

I'd often thought of getting some gear together to portray a doctor, but the big drawback, of course, is that I could only sign on to a junk...

Nonsense man!!

Have you never heard of being shanghaied?? (chuckle)

Come lad, I'll be after stealing you aboard me own vessel!!

[PyratePhil]

edit

[Iron Bess]

Burma Shave!!

[PyratePhil]

Burma Shave!!

Whoa!

I thought I be the only one rememberin' thet company...

...many a minute passed in glee, watchin' fer signs on the ol' road-trips betwixt ports...

[Iron Bess]

Yeah, well.... I've never been one to dodge my age so I don't mind dating m'self!

They were fun, were they not??

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

Here's a really good site for historical aspects of the disease (They thought it was communicable!)

Historical Aspects of Epilepsy

A few herbs etc.. that were used for Falling Sickness/epilepsy This spans the eighteenth century.

They are;

St. John's Wort, Senna, Wood Bettony.

A few preparations were:

Epileptic Glyster...for both adults & children, a Cephalic Decoction, a carminitive julep and an Epileptic Infusion made with...

Misseltoe, Juice of rue, brandy, spring water, Salt of tartar, Heated 12 hours strained and sweetened with syrup of piony.

Hope it helps,

[Animal]

Hmmm...ships surgeon??? That might work fer me persona. I be da ships cook and reverend, Iffn me food gets them, I could doctor them and in de worse case say a few words over dem as we slip dem o'er the side!!! What tinks ye, Captn Huricane?

Animal

hmmm... no medical emoticons

[hitman]

Not 100% on target but the doc's of the time would diagnose mental disorders by using facial expressions, I.E. Your cousin with the wierd leer of a smile would be in the insane asylum now. They even published books on the topic with pic's of the faces of insane. Just thought I'd contribute this as it has been a useful device in a couple of my short stories.

[Bootstrap Bill Turner]

Not 100% on target but the doc's of the time would diagnose mental disorders by using facial expressions, I.E. Your cousin with the wierd leer of a smile would be in the insane asylum now. They even published books on the topic with pic's of the faces of insane. Just thought I'd contribute this as it has been a useful device in a couple of my short stories.

Would you be able to direct me to any information via internet or books on the diagnosis of mental illness through facial expressions? That is very interesting! I've just recently gotten interested in the treatment and diagnosis of mental illness in the 17th & 18th Centuries. I'd really like to read up on it.

Thanks!

[DocF225]

Remember that up until the latter half of the 19th century, mental illness was still treated as a weakness of mind as opposed to a pathology.

There was no real treatment simply placing the patient in an asylum or some other out of the way location was about the extent of the medial community's involvement..