How PC is this drawing?

[Commodore Swab]

http://www.mariner.org/women/images/images...nnyMaryRead.jpg

[Fox]

It's from the first ed. of Johnson, 1724.

[Tartan Jack]

It is period accurate, from Johnson's book.

As for being specifically Mary Reed, it is an illustrator making a woman in seaman's clothing.

If used for the basis of a period garb, you could do MUCH, much worse. It IS period and is an attempt to portray a sailor.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Tartan Jack

[Commodore Swab]

Thats what I thought, a friend of mine used that drawing to have some clothes made but after reading much of the forum she was getting scared with all the talk of hand stitching and linen vs cotton thinking she might not be able to wear it at all.

[Capt. Sterling]

As far as using this for period kit for a male.. I would be VERY cautious... as the girls look to be wearing very basic fontages or caps on their heads and their coats are certainly cut to fit and portray a more female figure, including the gathering of the more full sleeve around the wrist... their trousers seem more according to what we see men wearing... but I think the rest is very much an artist's rendition of trying to get the point across that these two figures are female and not male...

Now the other picture of the semi bare breasted pics seem a better attempt of showing women wearing men's clothes...unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot post said pictures... but try looking here and see if Foxe's has them in his collection...

Edited May 11, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[Commodore Swab]

As far as using this for period kit for a male.. I would be VERY cautious... as the girls look to be wearing very basic fontages or caps on their heads and their coats are certainly cut to fit and portray a more female figure, including the gathering of the more full sleeve around the wrist... their trousers seem more according to what we see men wearing... but I think the rest is very much an artist's rendition of trying to get the point across that these two figures are female and not male...

Now the other picture of the semi bare breasted pics seem a better attempt of showing women wearing men's clothes...unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot post said pictures... but try looking here and see if Foxe's has them in his collection...

I supose its a good thing my friend is a she and not a he

[Capt. Sterling]

Granted, but my point is, although this drawing is from the period, I question its reliability as to how accurately drawn the garments are ...

[Shay of the Keys]

As far as using this for period kit for a male.. I would be VERY cautious... as the girls look to be wearing very basic fontages or caps on their heads and their coats are certainly cut to fit and portray a more female figure, including the gathering of the more full sleeve around the wrist... their trousers seem more according to what we see men wearing... but I think the rest is very much an artist's rendition of trying to get the point across that these two figures are female and not male...

Now the other picture of the semi bare breasted pics seem a better attempt of showing women wearing men's clothes...unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot post said pictures... but try looking here and see if Foxe's has them in his collection...

Aye, I was delighted to see in your thread that they were listed in Foxe's (The Thieve's Market, Minimum Garb Standards, Post #80 on May, 7, '09). Capt. Sterling, though I am a newbie, I wish to do things correctly, yet within my budget. Back when I had a few more shillings I was in Bangkok and brought this picture to a professional tailor. My goal was at that time to continue performing Mary Read, only I wished the accuracy of sturdy clothes (I had been performing Mary Read in actual 19th century clothing for the schools in Calif. in the early 1990's; my content was true to the storyline, but my clothes were inaccurate and too fragile to continue performing in).

Now I find myself desiring to be involved in re-enactments such as PIP. The outfit I had made fits beautifully, with correct colors and fabrics for the time, I believe, according to the primary sources I had consulted and continue to learn from; however, I would have to overstitch by hand all the visible stitching and remove the machine stitching. Also, the material might need aging. Before I irrevocably change the outfit I need to make sure it would be PC acceptable for one of my future characters. I am more than willing to adopt (reverse-engineer) a storyline to match my clothing, if it be feasible, and have a few ideas. However, as you so wisely pointed out in your Capt. Twill- FAQ , I do NOT wish to backwards document. Should I bribe the nearest honest re-enactor from PIP to come and view my current wardrobe to see what be feasible? I have no camera at present, unfortunately. Please note: this attire would be for fighting scenarios, not the wench what plays the harpsichord. I am located in Key Largo. Thank you, Capt. -Shay of the Keys

[Mission]

Not to get OT, but PiP doesn't really have minimum garb standards. While it would be nice to have hand stitching for period accuracy, no one there is likely to scold you for having machine stitching. You might want to try hand stitching your next garment and make it looser if you're going for the Anne/Mary look. Sterling's point (as I understand it) is that the clothing shown in the picture is tight to emphasize their femininity which is the exact opposite of what Anne and Mary would have wanted to do. But PiP is quite accepting of all efforts. Pirates run the gamut from Captain Jack Sparrow to Captain Jack Rackham.

For more photos than you could possibly view in one sitting of the variety of garb folks at PiP '08 wear, see this thread.

[Capt. Sterling]

Would help if I had included the link to Foxe's collection... PC pics

and for those of you too lazy to go looking at some very nice stuff...

a much better artistic attempt for, in my worthless opinion, there is no attempt to feminize the outfit...

Edited May 12, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[Shay of the Keys]

Not to get OT, but PiP doesn't really have minimum garb standards. While it would be nice to have hand stitching for period accuracy, no one there is likely to scold you for having machine stitching. You might want to try hand stitching your next garment and make it looser if you're going for the Anne/Mary look. Sterling's point (as I understand it) is that the clothing shown in the picture is tight to emphasize their femininity which is the exact opposite of what Anne and Mary would have wanted to do. But PiP is quite accepting of all efforts. Pirates run the gamut from Captain Jack Sparrow to Captain Jack Rackham.

For more photos than you could possibly view in one sitting of the variety of garb folks at PiP '08 wear, see this thread.

Mission: the pix of PIP are wonderful; I've searched so many locales and uncovered many scattered gems, and 'tis very nice to find a concentration of them in one area; I know what

I'll be enjoying tonight! Thank you! -Shay of the Keys

[Tartan Jack]

As far as using this for period kit for a male.. I would be VERY cautious... as the girls look to be wearing very basic fontages or caps on their heads and their coats are certainly cut to fit and portray a more female figure, including the gathering of the more full sleeve around the wrist... their trousers seem more according to what we see men wearing... but I think the rest is very much an artist's rendition of trying to get the point across that these two figures are female and not male...

Now the other picture of the semi bare breasted pics seem a better attempt of showing women wearing men's clothes...unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot post said pictures... but try looking here and see if Foxe's has them in his collection...

Very true.

What I said (intended to say): It is an artists ATTEMPT to portray women in seamen garb.

It is too tight of a fit compared to other period illustrations of sailors. The cut looks "off," but the pieces (as in what they are) look right, in general. A better thing would be to look through Foxe's collection of period sailor drawings.

It looks like much of poor-man/sailor's clothing was often made on only a few sizes and often fit poorly, worse than I would like to wear myself. By modern standards of mass-production fit, they often look a bit "frumpy."

Your friend now needs to decide intention, inc. place/group where said outfit is to be worn.

-Is it with an established reenactment group? If so, what are THEIR standards?

-Is it for general "pirate" events? If so, the standards are often pretty lax.

-Is it to recreate the illustration look, as close as possible? If so, that is pretty cool and interesting in-and-of itself, plus an interested tale when worn. That said, some groups (like Sterling indicates) would like something more "period generic" (my words, NOT Sterling's, I'm NOT speaking in his place and don't intend to so do).

-Is it for some OTHER purpose?

IE-> WHY is the garment set being made in the first place, that indicates what level of "weight" should be put on the illustration.

-- For total accuracy in a portrayal, the more common and "period generic" you can make it, the better.

Ex. Would a pirate have EVER worn a belted plaid on a ship?

Maybe, esp. if in the Western Isles or around Scotland. BUT, it would NOT have been worn in the Caribbean (for a number of reasons) and recorded accounts (primary sources and period secondary sources) have little-to-no historical indicators of belted plaid clad Scotsmen on board a pirate ship on any major voyage or any group that reenactment groups are trying to portray.

So, I leave my belted plaids for my Jacobite stuff and don slops using only the stuff that does overlap (which a lot does).

We need not to make the uncommon common and the common, uncommon.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Tartan Jack

[Capt. Sterling]

right then, I've calmed down ....sigh...

[Shay of the Keys]

As far as using this for period kit for a male.. I would be VERY cautious... as the girls look to be wearing very basic fontages or caps on their heads and their coats are certainly cut to fit and portray a more female figure, including the gathering of the more full sleeve around the wrist... their trousers seem more according to what we see men wearing... but I think the rest is very much an artist's rendition of trying to get the point across that these two figures are female and not male...

Now the other picture of the semi bare breasted pics seem a better attempt of showing women wearing men's clothes...unfortunately I am currently at work and cannot post said pictures... but try looking here and see if Foxe's has them in his collection...

Very true.

What I said (intended to say): It is an artists ATTEMPT to portray women in seamen garb.

It is too tight of a fit compared to other period illustrations of sailors. The cut looks "off," but the pieces (as in what they are) look right, in general. A better thing would be to look through Foxe's collection of period sailor drawings.

It looks like much of poor-man/sailor's clothing was often made on only a few sizes and often fit poorly, worse than I would like to wear myself. By modern standards of mass-production fit, they often look a bit "frumpy."

Your friend now needs to decide intention, inc. place/group where said outfit is to be worn.

-Is it with an established reenactment group? If so, what are THEIR standards?

-Is it for general "pirate" events? If so, the standards are often pretty lax.

-Is it to recreate the illustration look, as close as possible? If so, that is pretty cool and interesting in-and-of itself, plus an interested tale when worn. That said, some groups (like Sterling indicates) would like something more "period generic" (my words, NOT Sterling's, I'm NOT speaking in his place and don't intend to so do).

-Is it for some OTHER purpose?

IE-> WHY is the garment set being made in the first place, that indicates what level of "weight" should be put on the illustration.

-- For total accuracy in a portrayal, the more common and "period generic" you can make it, the better.

Ex. Would a pirate have EVER worn a belted plaid on a ship?

Maybe, esp. if in the Western Isles or around Scotland. BUT, it would NOT have been worn in the Caribbean (for a number of reasons) and recoded accounts (primary sources and period secondary sources) have little-to-no historical indicators of belted plaid clad Scotsmen on board a pirate ship on any major voyage or any group reenactment groups are trying to portray.

So, I leave my belted plaids for my Jacobite stuff and don slops using only the stuff that does overlap (which a lot does).

We need not to make the uncommon common and the common, uncommon.

Tartan Jack: thank you for clarifying several points. In explanation, the outfit was made primarily to perform Mary Read for schools and Historic Societies. I wanted to display the illustration on a handbill, as close a match possible to my attire in which I would be performing. I participated at the Hyde St. Pier (San Francisco) Living History Programs for several years and traveled in a 'Time Machine' during my historical soliloquies to tell a sailing history that encompassed the GAoP to post-Gold Rush era Clipper ships as I changed attire. Safety was my #1 focus, education and accuracy 2nd, and entertainment 3rd. The clothing and live steel weapons I used were not PC, but were original and of the 19th Century. I wanted to recreate the look as closely as possible, and retire my original artifacts. And yes, the students knew at the performance end the actual dates of my artifacts, and that they were much more modern than the correct era for Mary Read.

That said, I humbly ask assistance to determine how appropriate the clothing may be for PIP. Performing in the schools here in Florida as Mary Read will probably not be happening, with post-911 strictures. Is it too far-fetched to portray a female pirate who's a bit particular about her clothing and when she saw the opportunity to grab some nice silks from the Orient took her share of Booty so she could make herself some attractive clothes?(I even knew better than to use plaid; the trousers are dark blue, coat goldenrod).The baldric is tan leather. Perhaps if the clothing be not loose enough (although I have full range of motion for almost any stage combat move), I could grouse about the idiocy of trying to improve upon the tried and true slops that REAL pirates wear, and not the fashion-fop pride of a woman who thought she could improve upon tradition...Or is that too uncommon?

So- here I am wishing to wear and enjoy it, but only if it be correct and won't raise hackles. I've been in Historic Circles all my life far fussier, and I can only say please be honest, and I really appreciate all your help and advice. In gratitude and all sincerity---Shay of the Keys

[Fox]

One further thought: if you want to portray Mary Read (or Anne Bonny) and you want to be historically accurate, then unless you're actually fighting you should probably be wearing female kit anyway...

[Guest]

One further thought: if you want to portray Mary Read (or Anne Bonny) and you want to be historically accurate, then unless you're actually fighting you should probably be wearing female kit anyway...

Or pregnant..... :rolleyes

(sorry, it was just too obvious of a stupid comment for me not to post .... )

[Capt. Sterling]

Aye, I was delighted to see in your thread that they were listed in Foxe's (The Thieve's Market, Minimum Garb Standards, Post #80 on May, 7, '09). Capt. Sterling, though I am a newbie, I wish to do things correctly, yet within my budget. Back when I had a few more shillings I was in Bangkok and brought this picture to a professional tailor. My goal was at that time to continue performing Mary Read, only I wished the accuracy of sturdy clothes (I had been performing Mary Read in actual 19th century clothing for the schools in Calif. in the early 1990's; my content was true to the storyline, but my clothes were inaccurate and too fragile to continue performing in).

Now I find myself desiring to be involved in re-enactments such as PIP. The outfit I had made fits beautifully, with correct colors and fabrics for the time, I believe, according to the primary sources I had consulted and continue to learn from; however, I would have to overstitch by hand all the visible stitching and remove the machine stitching. Also, the material might need aging. Before I irrevocably change the outfit I need to make sure it would be PC acceptable for one of my future characters. I am more than willing to adopt (reverse-engineer) a storyline to match my clothing, if it be feasible, and have a few ideas. However, as you so wisely pointed out in your Capt. Twill- FAQ , I do NOT wish to backwards document. Should I bribe the nearest honest re-enactor from PIP to come and view my current wardrobe to see what be feasible? I have no camera at present, unfortunately. Please note: this attire would be for fighting scenarios, not the wench what plays the harpsichord. I am located in Key Largo. Thank you, Capt. -Shay of the Keys

M'dear Shay, sorry for neglecting this post, but I will be happy to assist you as much as possible but I currently have my hands full with two major back to back events coming up at the end of the month. As far as folks helping you out, there are some in Key West that I am assisting with their kits as well, so perhaps with introductions you can all get together and plan on some work weekends. Just give me a bit....

[Commodore Swab]

I had no idea when I posted this it would generate so much "interest" I was simply wondering how period correct the author had been when he painted it. We all know that when taking pictures we usually put on our best clothes and I was wondering how this picture might relate to real life.

[Diosa De Cancion]

One further thought: if you want to portray Mary Read (or Anne Bonny) and you want to be historically accurate, then unless you're actually fighting you should probably be wearing female kit anyway...

The exception to this is that Mary would NOT have worn women's clothing. There were only two times in her life when she was dressed as a female... before her brother died when she was young and when she spent a couple of years in marriage in Europe.

Otherwise, she always portrayed a man as a footsman in her teens, then a soldier and eventually a pirate.

Anne did switch back and forth, but Mary dressed as a man all the time as far as I have been able to tell. She also was one hell of a fighter...

[Fox]

So Johnson would have it... (see the 'reliability of' thread)

However, other evidence suggests differently. For example, Woodes Rogers' proclamation after Rackham and co stole a sloop from Providence mentioned 'two women, by name Anne Fulford alias Bonny and Mary Read' - ie. it was well known that they were women right from the beginning of their piracy.

More pertinent perhaps is the evidence given at their trial by John Besneck and Peter Cornelian that when they 'gave chase, or attacked, [bonny and Read] wore men's cloaths; and, at other times, they wore women's cloaths'

[Shay of the Keys]

Aye, I was delighted to see in your thread that they were listed in Foxe's (The Thieve's Market, Minimum Garb Standards, Post #80 on May, 7, '09). Capt. Sterling, though I am a newbie, I wish to do things correctly, yet within my budget. Back when I had a few more shillings I was in Bangkok and brought this picture to a professional tailor. My goal was at that time to continue performing Mary Read, only I wished the accuracy of sturdy clothes (I had been performing Mary Read in actual 19th century clothing for the schools in Calif. in the early 1990's; my content was true to the storyline, but my clothes were inaccurate and too fragile to continue performing in).

Now I find myself desiring to be involved in re-enactments such as PIP. The outfit I had made fits beautifully, with correct colors and fabrics for the time, I believe, according to the primary sources I had consulted and continue to learn from; however, I would have to overstitch by hand all the visible stitching and remove the machine stitching. Also, the material might need aging. Before I irrevocably change the outfit I need to make sure it would be PC acceptable for one of my future characters. I am more than willing to adopt (reverse-engineer) a storyline to match my clothing, if it be feasible, and have a few ideas. However, as you so wisely pointed out in your Capt. Twill- FAQ , I do NOT wish to backwards document. Should I bribe the nearest honest re-enactor from PIP to come and view my current wardrobe to see what be feasible? I have no camera at present, unfortunately. Please note: this attire would be for fighting scenarios, not the wench what plays the harpsichord. I am located in Key Largo. Thank you, Capt. -Shay of the Keys

M'dear Shay, sorry for neglecting this post, but I will be happy to assist you as much as possible but I currently have my hands full with two major back to back events coming up at the end of the month. As far as folks helping you out, there are some in Key West that I am assisting with their kits as well, so perhaps with introductions you can all get together and plan on some work weekends. Just give me a bit....

Capt. Sterling, My sincere apologies as I was unaware of the events aforementioned. You, Kass, and Mr. Foxe have been absolutely invaluable in your advice and primary source information. I cannot thank you all enough for the many well-documented pictures, descriptions, and further recommended sources throughout this Pub. I have been doggedly pursuing the threads as I've completed my first handsewn man's shirt a few days ago. Research is proceeding well on the harpsicord, also. Intros to other Pyrates here in the Keys would be lovely, but only if and when you have time. Sincerely, Treva (Shay of the Keys)