Opinions on this Justacorps/Frock???

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Found this on Ebay today. The material is wool, which is a good start. I've researched the design and it doesn't seem too bad for a semi-fancy frock. I think I see a coouple of problems, so I sent a question to the maker to see what pattern / documentation (if any) there is. Anyway, for fun, I thought I would throw this out here and get all the expert opinions (from a period correct viewpoint).

Thanks!

Ebay Frock Coat

Edited April 24, 2009 by Mooseworth

[michaelsbagley]

Okay, since this is the Twill section, I'm going to guess you are meaning to ask "what do you think of this coat regarding authenticity"?

So please take the following comments with the thought that I am addressing the coat from that perspective. I you are looking for more "cool/uncool" type feedback, I apologize in advance.

The collar line looks like it transitions into the the front closure on a curve rather than a corner. It should be a corner.

The cuffs looks a bit off. I think the turn back cuffs are not looking full enough. Impossible to tell from the pictures, but it also looks like the sleeves are too long. The cuffs on most period coats actually sat a few inches above the wrist (or even more on early some French coats), and those cuff look like they are designed to end at the wrist.

The skirting (bottom hem of the coat) doesn't seem correct, but it is almost impossible to tell from those pictures.

One the whole, it just doesn't look quite right to me.

[Capt. Sterling]

I must agree with the seller, tis a costume, although a nice one, but still a costume.

[Capt. Sterling]

Note the necklines... her's looks closer to the 1730s and after style although if you really wanted to debate the issue, it could be close, though way too big to the second picture which is the 1720s style, which was basically no longer working on a sharp corner like the earlier styles... which by the way, the sharp corner really never seems to disappear all together...

The problem being with the neckline in her photo, it is what a lot of seamstresses and patterns seem to offer... the necklines are just way too big. Her pocket on the purplish brocade coat is questionable... I have seen large pocket flaps on earlier coats but not a bag pocket which looks to be depicted there. As for the lapels, I am not seeing them either until later.

From the pictures posted it is also impossible to tell if there are side vents as well a the back one which were very common and necessary for carrying a sword and riding...

I also agree that the cuff to the sleeve just looks too big. Now if she were going for a pagoda sleeve of the period she's missed that as well.

There also doesn't appear to be the proper tailoring either in order to get the coat to hold its shape... i.e, its just hanging there somewhat... ahem... limp.

Now whether costume or accurate clothing, and it could be that it is just caught up on the dress dummy incorrectly, and just needs to be straightened a bit, but boy if it doesn't look like she botched up the lining on the black coat... all those wrinkles should not be there, but again, it could just need resetting onto the dummy correctly...

Edited April 24, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[LadyBarbossa]

The pattern I recognise off the bat. It's the Simplicity pattern 4923 or something like that. It's the generic version of Jack Sparrow and the sort.

As it's the closest that Simplicity comes to general 18th c attire this pattern still has some flaws.

As to the lass who proposes to custom make you the outfit.... BUYER BEWARE!

Seriously, if the outfit is NOT already made and up for auction... don't even bother.

You have a better bet with one of the established professional sutlers out there or even some members of the Pub who have the experience and know-how of the period fashions.

It's a good coat for the non-historical costumer.

~Lady B

[Kenneth]

Not correct. Tis but a ren frock.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

HEy there! Thanks for all the great info. Although I am a beginner at this, i did notice the cuffs, and lack of slits in the sides of the coat. The brocade one, well, it's not even the same pattern and looks really incorrect to me. What I didn't pick up on was the neck line. I saw "no collar" and immediately thought it was okay. I'll need to spend some more time peering at that. I also noticed the cuffs were not quite right and there didn't seem to be enough buttons down the front.

That said, I do have a guy making me a middle class early 1700s style coat. He uses the patterns from reconstructing history. BTW - the lady making this ebay coat replied that she doesn't use a pattern. THat is a nice costume coat, one of the better I've seen. But personally, that's not what i am looking for.

Thanks for all your insight and perspective and knowledge sharing!

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Thanks again!

Edited April 24, 2009 by Mooseworth

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Okay, since this is the Twill section, I'm going to guess you are meaning to ask "what do you think of this coat regarding authenticity"?

So please take the following comments with the thought that I am addressing the coat from that perspective. I you are looking for more "cool/uncool" type feedback, I apologize in advance.

The collar line looks like it transitions into the the front closure on a curve rather than a corner. It should be a corner.

The cuffs looks a bit off. I think the turn back cuffs are not looking full enough. Impossible to tell from the pictures, but it also looks like the sleeves are too long. The cuffs on most period coats actually sat a few inches above the wrist (or even more on early some French coats), and those cuff look like they are designed to end at the wrist.

The skirting (bottom hem of the coat) doesn't seem correct, but it is almost impossible to tell from those pictures.

One the whole, it just doesn't look quite right to me.

Thanks Michael - you are very PC! I have costume clothing and have been making the transition over to period correct stuff for the last few months. Needless to say, I appreciate the wealth of knowledge here.

[michaelsbagley]

Thanks Michael - you are very PC! I have costume clothing and have been making the transition over to period correct stuff for the last few months. Needless to say, I appreciate the wealth of knowledge here.

Actually all the thanks should go to Sterling on this one... I just spouted off what I could notice going from memory, Sterling was good enough to not only point out flaws, but post the line drawing to back up the critiques. I'm so used to thinking up to 1720 that I had completely forgotten that the later (1730s) coats did have a rounded edge from the collar going to the front opening.

Glad to hear you got something worked out for a coat though!

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Note the necklines... her's looks closer to the 1730s and after style although if you really wanted to debate the issue, it could be close, though way too big to the second picture which is the 1720s style, which was basically no longer working on a sharp corner like the earlier styles... which by the way, the sharp corner really never seems to disappear all together...

The problem being with the neckline in her photo, it is what a lot of seamstresses and patterns seem to offer... the necklines are just way too big. Her pocket on the purplish brocade coat is questionable... I have seen large pocket flaps on earlier coats but not a bag pocket which looks to be depicted there. As for the lapels, I am not seeing them either until later.

From the pictures posted it is also impossible to tell if there are side vents as well a the back one which were very common and necessary for carrying a sword and riding...

I also agree that the cuff to the sleeve just looks too big. Now if she were going for a pagoda sleeve of the period she's missed that as well.

There also doesn't appear to be the proper tailoring either in order to get the coat to hold its shape... i.e, its just hanging there somewhat... ahem... limp.

Now whether costume or accurate clothing, and it could be that it is just caught up on the dress dummy incorrectly, and just needs to be straightened a bit, but boy if it doesn't look like she botched up the lining on the black coat... all those wrinkles should not be there, but again, it could just need resetting onto the dummy correctly...

Many many thanks Capn' Sterling! BTW - I checked out your crew's site, you guys look very nice! My wife commented, "Looks like they are in a movie" - I'm sure she wasn't referring to POTC... Thanks again!

[silas thatcher]

i bought the rh pattern for the justacorps and am not going to even try to tackle it until i get a chance to inspect someone else's... and hopefully get a few construction tips in the process...

michael and captain sterling do some excellent work and have a wealth of knowledge to share for those of us who ask for it...