Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Just wondering if anyone has ever seen a reference to those stripey stockings I've seen people associate with pirate attire. I have yet to see aperiod drawing or a written reference to these. Any help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Just wondering if anyone has ever seen a reference to those stripey stockings I've seen people associate with pirate attire. I have yet to see a period drawing or a written reference to these. Any help? The short answer is they are not historically correct that I know of. There have been a few really good in depth discussions about them over the years, I'll try and dig the links up and post them for you. If memory serves me well, there was one period image that seemed to depict vertical striped socks... But no evidence of the horizontal striped stocking so popular amongst the Rennie pirate scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well I did a search through both the "Captain's Twill" and "Thieve's Market" sections of the pub, and I couldn't find the thread I seem to recall. Maybe the discussion happenned on another pirate forum I am on? Sorry I couldn't be of more help or provide more solid evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well I did a search through both the "Captain's Twill" and "Thieve's Market" sections of the pub, and I couldn't find the thread I seem to recall. Maybe the discussion happenned on another pirate forum I am on? Sorry I couldn't be of more help or provide more solid evidence. Thanks! I've been dong a lot researching lately, trying to build a good kit and as you've noticed as well, failed to see any evidence either way. Could they be a bigger faux pas than bucket boots on a historically correct effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Thanks! I've been dong a lot researching lately, trying to build a good kit and as you've noticed as well, failed to see any evidence either way. Could they be a bigger faux pas than bucket boots on a historically correct effort? You're most welcome for the help (for all that it was)... As for your question, it is very subjective.... One person, may not care about boots but get bent right out of shape about stripey socks, another person might hate boots but be more than willing to overlook stripey socks... Personally, I'd be more willing to overlook the socks than the boots... But I'm only one person and not one of much consequence, specially with regards to the event you are prepping for. Contacting one of the host Crew (Blackbeards Crew) might get you the best answers on tolerance levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 IIRC there were a small number of pictures of striped stocking from 1740ish onwards, and the earliest anyone could find was the Williamsburg fan of, I think, 1739 (courtesy of Blackjohn). Even after that date there were very few depictions. With that in mind I'd not agree that striped hose were right by any means (if you're really trying to get it right then avoid them), but probably less of an issue for me than bucket boots. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted April 17, 2009 Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Anyone have a reference picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 1740 Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Could those lines just as well be knitting ribs instead of color? A thought... had the socks been hand knitted with several rows of pearl then several rows of knit they they might look somewhat striped. I've seem wool sock in cable knit like a sweater, any thoughts on those? “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 ahoy mooseworth, just wandered across this thread. as far as the blackbeard festival goes, if you are attending as general public- wear what you like and enjoy yourself. if you are a performing crew the boots should stay at home and we really don't mind striped socks, but prefer solids. If i can help with anymore prefestival questions, please don't hesitate to ask and be sure to track me down when you get there. I'll be in camp by thursday. -dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Anyone have a reference picture? Yeah, as Foxe says, it is from a fan in the DeWitt Wallace Decorative Arts Museum. If I recall properly, the figure in question was not a westerner, but a captive of some foreign nationality. But don't quote me on that. Back when we were originally debating this image, like Rusty Nell, I suggested that the stripes could just as easily be an artistic convention, i.e., someone trying to show shading. I seem to recall someone with artistic expertise debated the opposite. I wasn't convinced. Ymmv. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNell Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Only reason I might agree with blackjohn's comment above is that the rest of the picture has color and the pant stripes are painted. I would think the artist would paint those as well if they were alternating colors like he did the pants. just my opinion. “PIRACY, n. Commerce without its folly-swaddles, just as God made it.” Ambrose Bierce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwreck John Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 They must be authentic, cause Captain Bogg wears em. Not really sure if they are, but it probably won't stop me from wearing them as I dress more hollywood than GOP anyway Shipwreck Adventurer of Independent Means TALL SAILS AND MERMAIDS TAILS, THIS BE THE LIFE FOR ME "THEM THAT DIE WILL BE THE LUCKY ONES" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 just my two cents. the artist does use plack lines to mark textures and shadowing. look at the tops of the socks on the lower man, various times on the jackets and on the crate on the left side. has anyone ever contacted the museum for their take on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callenish gunner Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 however the other lines used only went in sporadic areas and never all the way across any item of clothing where the ones on the stocking on the upper figure do cross the entire leg ...why couldn't they be striped??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 (edited) e gads gunner! i hope your not poluting wee hammishs mind with all this dribble of striped socks. why next thing you know he'll be wearing straw tricorns, bucket boots and drinking out of glass bottomed tankards. just kiddin mate there is really not enough to go on. it could or could not be striped or as nell suggests a type of weave. one of those mysteries of life i guess. by the way, auntie grace and dutch get dibs on spoiling the wee one at the festival! Edited April 19, 2009 by bbcddutchman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunpowder Gertie Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 (edited) however the other lines used only went in sporadic areas and never all the way across any item of clothing where the ones on the stocking on the upper figure do cross the entire leg ...why couldn't they be striped??? Having been a professional artist, and more than familiar with types of shading, I would say that the artist intended for the stripes on the lower leg of the kneeling person to be stripes. The stripes go all the way around the leg, yet they are separate. If the artist intended to show shadow of the body over the leg, the stripes may or may not go all the way "around" the leg- but they would most certainly be closer together to indicate a denser shadow. Also, there would likely be more stripes at the bottom of the leg (the shin) to indicate gradation of tone, and a darker shadow again as it touches the ground.Also note, on the other body that the shading stripes are short and choppy, and are used to denote shape, form and structure. The stripes on the leg do none of these things, and are in my opinion there merely to indicate a pattern.I would also say that the colour of the stocking stripes are black, as red was used to denote pants stripes,and the pants themselves and gold/brown wash to indicate coat colour. That wouldn't be necessary to add a wash if if the stripes were black to begin with. Edited April 19, 2009 by Gunpowder Gertie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 There it is! I have seen this before, but didn't take note of the stripe socks. Nice! 1740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Henry aka Moose Posted April 20, 2009 Author Share Posted April 20, 2009 Thanks! I appreciate it! ahoy mooseworth,just wandered across this thread. as far as the blackbeard festival goes, if you are attending as general public- wear what you like and enjoy yourself. if you are a performing crew the boots should stay at home and we really don't mind striped socks, but prefer solids. If i can help with anymore prefestival questions, please don't hesitate to ask and be sure to track me down when you get there. I'll be in camp by thursday. -dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Jack Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I'm putting the large number of researchers here to use. I've had some F&I period reenactors locally bring up the debate that any depiction of vertically-striped stockings in that period are used to show the individual as unschooled and a "country bumpkin" for satirical purposes. I've attempted to demonstrate that most images showing such stockings as "country bumpkin" are 1790s, but as for finding British Navy/Merchant sailors wearing vertically striped stockings before that, most of my evidence is circumstantial. Both in images and written text, the early 1700s references to striped stockings all seem to point to them being "exclusively" Continental. Whether the references from the "Macaroni Club" of the 1770s, or the images of clothiers in the 1740s displaying their mastery of Continental fashion, the British press seem to regard vertical stripes as a purely Continental thing. That said, yes we well know that the British mariners of the period immediately following the GAoP were a rather multinational bunch. The likelihood of sailors wearing "foreign" fashion is rather good, but likelihood is not proof. It merely shows a possibility, even a probability, but by no means a certainty. What other documentation - text or image - do folks know of for the very end of the GAoP which might support [or for that matter disprove] the wearing of vertically striped stockings by British sailors [regardless of their actual nation of origin]? What stockings, as it were, might Ned Low's crew have worn? Anyone know of some off the cuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I am not sure if this will prove or disprove any one's questions on striped, vertical or otherwise. But here is one site i have used when reeasrching historical knitting for the 18 th centurey. http://www.marariley.net/knitting/knitting.htm i have NO idea how to post so the links work anymore, but there is one site. Ye Ship's Potter, turned fiber rat. salty PS in talking to a woman that handles historical yarns from the UK they are coming up with more documentation all the time in the museums. PPS Dutch how could gunner polute the wee laddie's mind when the likes of cousin robbie be about :)) Edited July 30, 2009 by Saltypots Mud Slinging Pyromanic , Errrrrr Ship's Potter at ye service Vagabond's Rogue Potter Wench First Mate of the Fairge Iolaire Me weapons o choice be lots o mud, sharp pointy sticks, an string Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oderlesseye Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) 12 th-century cotton sock, found in Egypt . The knitter of this sock started work at the toe and then worked up towards the leg. The heel was made last and then attached to loops formed while knitting the leg. This practice allowed the heel to be easily replaced when it wore out. So based onthe above account. I personally cannot rule out that striped socks did not exist Before 1740..that really is absurd from my point of view.. I looked up the History of socks and found several web sites that cover the history of socks. Considering The invention of a knitting machine in 1589 meant that socks could be knitted six times faster than by hand and in many designs and colors. A couple of the webs sites eye had check do mention stripped socks after the knitting machine was invented. However eye will say that ~ that style was probably not as common as well as the type of sock that were embroidered with personal emblems to fashionably identify ones personal socks. Another note is that pirates of the GAOP were still just people like you and eye and had fashionable taste. No one wears exactly the same clothing now any more than they did back then. There was a variety of styles and fashions of clothing/socks available to wear. So just maybe..maybe one pirate did in fact wear a pair of stripey socks that is so popular in todays cultural portrayal of pirates of the GAOP. But again it is still debatable... because unlike the other web sites eye checked . ~ "At the very end of the century (1790s) very fancy striped stockings become fashionable; with the exception of a possible example worn by a sailor in a mid-18th c. illustration, striped stockings don't seem to have been common before the end of the 18th century. Ribbed stockings, however, were worn." This is from the web site salt pots posted. Edited May 10, 2012 by oderlesseye http://www.myspace.com/oderlesseyehttp://www.facebook....esseye?ref=nameHangin at Execution dock awaits. May yer Life be a long and joyous adventure in gettin there!As he was about to face the gallows there, the pirate is said to have tossed a sheaf of papers into the crowd, taunting his audience with these final words: "My treasure to he who can understand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) both dated as 17th century Found: http://www.german-ho...schichte_09.htm but then this only shows the very cuff of the stocking so it does not support the all over stripe. Still looking for the link to the site these were posted on. Next pair found: http://educators.mfa...=41&pageSize=80 Museum of Fine Arts, Boston The Elizabeth Day McCormick Collection Accession number: 43.1943a-b Edited May 10, 2012 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Machine knit, c. 1720 Found: http://www.german-ho.../Bild10_06a.htm Make note: most of the striped cuff stockings I am coming across are Italian or German, not English, or Colonial. They are also silk. So some stripes, but nothing all over in the 17th century or early 18th century as of yet. Edited May 10, 2012 by Capt. Sterling "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Unfortunately even if it was fashionable in the late 18th century doesn't mean it was even common in the early 18th century. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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