Flying with black powder guns

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Just a heads up, NOT FEARMONGERING!

http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=1398

http://virginiashootingsportsassociation.b...rt-gun-ban.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2009/03/airport-chec-11.html

According to the NRA site this has moved forward and may take effect june 1st 2009. I suggest keeping a weather eye on this for those of you planning on flying with your guns. Also addressed is the un-precedented rise in luggage theft at airports by TSO's and other employees of the airports. Thought some of you should be aware, that's all.

Bo

Edited March 28, 2009 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[michaelsbagley]

Just a heads up, NOT FEARMONGERING!

http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=1398

http://virginiashootingsportsassociation.b...rt-gun-ban.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2009/03/airport-chec-11.html

According to the NRA site this has moved forward and may take effect june 1st 2009. I suggest keeping a weather eye on this for those of you planning on flying with your guns. Also addressed is the un-precedented rise in luggage theft at airports by TSO's and other employees of the airports. Thought some of you should be aware, that's all.

Bo

Actually Bo,

Not to start a fight or thumb my nose at your concerns... But one thing that should be noted about ALL THREE of the sources you cited, the term "BLOG" can be found. Blogs are personal commentaries, diaries, or non-official editorials, and not officially recognized news sources.

The first of the three sources you cited also mentions "President Bush". To me that speaks volumes about how out of date that particular source is and any validity that source holds gets flushed with it's current status.

Another point, ALL THREE stories are focusing on Concealed Permit holders in airports, not those who stow their weapons in sealed luggage for transport.

Lastly, the TSA is not (if my information is correct) a branch of the government but a private standards organization. One of the articles mentions asking "President Bush" should lean on the TSA, meaning the government has no official capacity to intervene, but only the ability to apply political pressure to encourage the TSA to make one decision or another, and that the TSA will make whatever decision it will make based on its own agenda.. They may consider government pressure, they may not...

Fear mongering? yeah, I think so.... The BLOGS are about people carrying pistols in airports on themerit of Concealed Carry permits, and have nothing to do with Gun law, or the safe transport of properly contained weapons.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Those sources are older yes. I couldn't find the ones I was lookin for. Take from it what you will, but the hunting guides I know are very upset about this, and my gun shop contact is also aware of this. Ignore it if you like, i am only trying to give a heads up on a potential travelling problem. I will trouble you all no more.

Bo

[oderlesseye]

Well it looks like Eye can have what ever box I want as long as it has a TSA Approved lock on it..

http://www.nextag.com/tsa-locks/compare-html

TSA web site concerning air travel with guns...

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ass...orial_1666.shtm

Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

I found this interesting enough to re-post this...for cautionary methods

Originally Posted by Texasflyboy View Post

Even at a large hub airport with over a thousand flights per day, the number of people who have motive and opportunity to steal your bag is usually less than 20. Knowing that, you can increase your chances of making your bag less attractive to "thefts of opportunity" or increase the chance that if your bag is "misplaced" (means hidden for later retrieval and theft) you may be able to get it back fairly quick.

I'll say this once, speed is your friend. The very second your bag goes missing, start screaming, and keep screaming until the cops arrive. If you know a reporter, or someone at the local newspaper or TV station, call them too. You want a Law Enforcement Officer present and involved as soon as possible, and not the TSA or the airline, who are never your friend.

My experience and suggestions are below. Your mileage may vary.

Since I worked for many years in the airline industry, well before TSA existed, and long after, here are some thoughts on this issue. I've traveled with firearms since 1985, and haven't lost one yet. I've had stimulating discussions with TSA personnel from time to time regarding my personal measures, but my bag always flies. I usually end the discussion with "I'll stop taking these measures when you guys stop stealing". The news articles on TSA personnel stealing speak for themselves. The TSA thieves are usually only outdone by the Airline thieves, who compete with the usual sundry thieves stealing your stuff while its out of your control at the airport.

When I travel with long or short guns, the case contains many things other than the firearm. In no particular order, here is what I include in my firearms cases.

* A high security small padlock purchased in Europe on the exterior. These can be mail ordered. They are small, effective, extremely difficult to pick, and do not subscribe to the TSA master key system. One style of these locks has a "round count" as it counts the number of times its been opened. I own several of these locks. They cost about 25 Euros. Using a European style lock is an extra layer of security to prevent the unauthorized opening of the lock by either authorized personnel, or ex TSA/Airline employees working in the Airline industry.

* A photograph, inside the case, on top of everything, taken with my digital camera and printed with my home printer showing the case and its contents, along with that day's newspaper. I have the original digital copy on a thumbdrive in my pocket. I can't stress this point enough, the very last thing your should do before you turn over your checked bag is to photograph it with a digital camera. You'll need that photo later and it will be the deciding factor in many cases in getting your bag returned.

* A notice stating that no ammunition is inside the case (I pack ammo separately or purchase it locally).

* One or two, possibly three anti-tamper devices.

* Many of these anti tamper devices are inexpensive and can be purchased on the Internet. They are well worth the expense. My favorite is:

* Trace It Powder

Cheap and deadly effective. It cost at least one Airline employee their job in Phoenix in 1998. Open and shut case.

* Several copies of news articles, courtesy of Google, describing successful prosecutions of TSA or Airline employees for Theft. Just to remind folks of the consequences.

* For longarms, the stock is wiped down and wrapped in cling film or saran wrap prior to it being closed. This is another anti-tamper mechanism for those familiar with forensics evidence methods.

* Locked to the longarm through the receiver is a steel bike cable locking (or mating) it to the case. The same cable is covered with little Christmas bells. (Thieves like objects like rifles to be silent, the little bells are easy to miss and make a lot of noise when you're trying to be covert) On some occasions when I am traveling light, I have several Scuba Diving weights padlocked with a high security padlock to the firearm. The weight increase ensures that its difficult to steal and carry discreetly (this works well for pistols). Its in your interest, within the airlines bag weight restriction, to make the bag as heavy as possible, not as light as possible. Thieves are lazy.

* A small pistol case is not your friend. Your case should be large enough to be noticed and difficult to conceal. When I travel with pistols, I usually place a small case inside a larger case just to make it more difficult to steal. The smaller case can be used once you get to your destination, and the larger case can be stored locally (like in your rental car trunk).

* In over 30 years of working at airports, 100% of bag thefts were male. As a result, pink can be your friend. One of my close associates had a pelican style case made in bright pink and covered it with pro feminine stickers like "Breast Cancer Awareness" or "Code Pink". You can see his case 100% of the time when it gets loaded on an airplane. I've seen it loaded from 6 gates away. Smart. Impossible to hide that anywhere and any guy walking across a ramp or parking lot is going to get a lot of stares. He carries a simple black elastic bag in his carry on that slips over the case when he has it. Discreet, and smart. Everyone in bag make up (where 80% of thefts occur) is going to remember a pink rifle case.

The last item I use when I am traveling with a high value (to me) firearm. It is a plunger activated audio alarm. Opening the case causes a shrill high db alarm to sound. It can't be turned off, you need a key. I have the only key. The one time it was activated I was in the terminal area, standing in the security line about 150 yards away and I heard it go off. My cell phone rang about 5 minutes later. Needless to say, it was an interesting discussion with the TSA that day. No one was happy about the conversation, least of all the airline employee who said he was just making sure the case was locked.

The final task is an engraved plate that I adhere to the exterior of the case with my cell phone number with a message "For entry please call the cell phone number and I will open the case for inspection on demand". I've been called over the years I have done this, many times by TSA or airline personnel wanting to see inside the case. After a brief discussion the case is closed.

One thing to remember, that many folks forget, in this day and age it is impossible to get a job on an airport without being fingerprinted. And gun owners are a small fraction of the passengers who are transporting high dollar high value bags.

The one time my rifle case was "misplaced" it was with United Airlines in Denver (at DIA airport). I went to baggage claim and presented to the bag agent, and then to the station manager (who I had summoned) my file folder showing all the preventative measures I had taken. I called Denver PD from the bag office and told them a firearm was missing in the airport. I informed the dispatcher my next phone call would be to the media. And I would be calling the media until I had an officer to talk to. I had one of Denver's finest standing in that office in about 50 seconds. Needless to say, things got interesting real fast.

We had a brief discussion regarding fingerprints, video recording, and other measures I know that the airport employs to counter bag theft. All bag inspection areas are video recorded. I had a meeting to make, so I left my card with the nice police officer who was by now talking to his duty Sgt. who were both in a tense discussion with the Assistant Station Manager.

My cell phone range when I was on the Rental Car bus. They had "found" my case and its contents and wanted me to return to pick it up.

Pays to be proactive folks. If you think before you fly like you're likely to think after its been stolen, you might be a little more creative and proactive about protecting your personal property, as I am.

I got my of my ideas on protecting my property from Airport LEO's who have worked bag theft rings for many years. In the late 1990's, there were several bag theft rings operating in the U.S. who were airport gypsies, they worked a city for a few months at a time hitting high value bags, what they were looking for were usually financial instruments or high dollar cargo (like diamonds). The methods the owners used to protect their property (like the UV powder) is one I adopted for my own use.There are a number of imaginative ways to use the powder. I use several methods, depending on what I am traveling with and the type of weapon.

I would not sprinkle it. You need to contain it and find a way to ensure its disturbed when the case is opened.

The simplest method is to duct tape a piece of cloth to the top of the lid and the bottom so that the excess cloth forms a pouch when you start to close the lid. Opening the case causes the cloth to stretch and eject the powder.

You don't need much. In the semi dark work areas a strong mag lite style UV light will light up the powder from 20 feet away.

Alternately, place about 1-2 tablespoons of powder in the center of a same colored towel. Fold carefully over the top of the weapon. To see the weapon they will move the towel. I usually place the bolt in a ziploc bag inside the folded towel to add weight to ensure that they open the towel to see what the heavy object is. This ensures that powder escapes the case and distributes in the area where the case was opened.

I have used contraptions before (like small mousetraps) but this invites inspection which causes a false alarm and now I have powder all over the inside of the case to clean for the next time.

Nothing, and I mean nothing gets the attention of the media today like a missing "gun" at the airport. And nothing gets the airlines and TSA's attention like asking the media to get involved.

It's a win win for the gun owner.

Edited March 29, 2009 by oderlesseye

[Guest]

The only hastle I've ever had with flying with my blunderbus, pistoles and cutlass.... is that they are all inside of a home made crate... They (TSA) question a home made crate..... and I quickly point out that as per TSA regulations that guns must be packed in a hard sided case.... 1/2 inch pine boards screwed together is a "hard sided case"..... (and kinda hard to run off with....)

I think wot messes with thier minds is that it's a home made case instead of something made from plastic that I bought from Wall-Mart.....

But I'm following thier rules.....

The problem this year is that I wanna bring my doglock musket.... much longer than my buss.... But I think I have that figured out..... Thanks Callinish.....

[Mission]

This discussion on shipping guns via the airline is fantastic, but it deserves the widest possible audience. (As much as I love the PiP forum, a lot of regulars do not read it because they don't go to PiP.)

Does anyone mind if I split this out into its own topic and move it to the Cascabel's gun forum?

[oderlesseye]

I will say flying with my guns, is definably an issue of flying to PiP that I do have to take thought on ..so input from those who have experience on this would be valuable..

Great Idea Patrick..Thieves are on the look out for store bought cases that are easily concealed...

Edited March 29, 2009 by oderlesseye

[Edward O'Keeffe]

Just a heads up, NOT FEARMONGERING!

http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=1398

http://virginiashootingsportsassociation.b...rt-gun-ban.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2009/03/airport-chec-11.html

According to the NRA site this has moved forward and may take effect june 1st 2009. I suggest keeping a weather eye on this for those of you planning on flying with your guns. Also addressed is the un-precedented rise in luggage theft at airports by TSO's and other employees of the airports. Thought some of you should be aware, that's all.

Bo

Thanks for the heads up, I generally drive, but my wife often flies. You did get me to look into the gun transportation requirements along the way. With the changing landscape of gun rights in several States I have to drive through, I don't want run afoul of any gun laws along the way.

Aww it's just right to keep and bear arms anyway, who really cares nowadays. Security has trumped Liberty, I guess we shall have neither.

[Mary Diamond]

The only hastle I've ever had with flying with my blunderbus, pistoles and cutlass.... is that they are all inside of a home made crate... They (TSA) question a home made crate..... and I quickly point out that as per TSA regulations that guns must be packed in a hard sided case.... 1/2 inch pine boards screwed together is a "hard sided case"..... (and kinda hard to run off with....)

I think wot messes with thier minds is that it's a home made case instead of something made from plastic that I bought from Wall-Mart.....

But I'm following thier rules.....

The problem this year is that I wanna bring my doglock musket.... much longer than my buss.... But I think I have that figured out..... Thanks Callinish.....

I have personally flown with my guns, in a hand-made wood box (you all may have seen Stynky post my Queen Ann's and their box for sale), through O'Hare Airport, in full kit ~ as recently as last year. Once TSA saw the FOID card, saw the guns "unloaded" (flint removed), I locked the case, buried it deep in my luggage (which also held my sword ~ golf club travel bags are perfect for this), watched it go through the x-ray scanner (twice), and I was on my way to my own "security check" (I have a full metal hip). The biggest problem ~ oversized luggage comes off the plane last.

For those of you concerned about traveling with weapons ~ just have your FOID card, be in kit, and be ready to answer curious questions. Oh, and keep a few coins handy for the kids ~

[Edward O'Keeffe]

The only hastle I've ever had with flying with my blunderbus, pistoles and cutlass.... is that they are all inside of a home made crate... They (TSA) question a home made crate..... and I quickly point out that as per TSA regulations that guns must be packed in a hard sided case.... 1/2 inch pine boards screwed together is a "hard sided case"..... (and kinda hard to run off with....)

I think wot messes with thier minds is that it's a home made case instead of something made from plastic that I bought from Wall-Mart.....

But I'm following thier rules.....

The problem this year is that I wanna bring my doglock musket.... much longer than my buss.... But I think I have that figured out..... Thanks Callinish.....

I have personally flown with my guns, in a hand-made wood box (you all may have seen Stynky post my Queen Ann's and their box for sale), through O'Hare Airport, in full kit ~ as recently as last year. Once TSA saw the FOID card, saw the guns "unloaded" (flint removed), I locked the case, buried it deep in my luggage (which also held my sword ~ golf club travel bags are perfect for this), watched it go through the x-ray scanner (twice), and I was on my way to my own "security check" (I have a full metal hip). The biggest problem ~ oversized luggage comes off the plane last.

For those of you concerned about traveling with weapons ~ just have your FOID card, be in kit, and be ready to answer curious questions. Oh, and keep a few coins handy for the kids ~

Mary,

The one problem with that is, not all States require registration of muzzle loading, black powder, antique firearms. NY for example has no restrictions on these firearms and therefore I have no documentation on any of mine. This might present a problem for me if I were to travel to or through a State which required finger printing or registration. As always forewarned is forearmed, and knowing the local laws, and proposed laws will only serve to keep us out of trouble.

[michaelsbagley]

I was wondering what an "FOID" card was... Ohio is also a state that does not require the registration of flintlock weapons... at least that I know of.

[Cascabel]

At the top of the Lock, Stock, and Barrel forum, I pinned a post that pretty well covers all contingencies. (as of the time of posting). I fly with weapons fairly regularly.

>>>> Cascabel

[theM.A.dDogge]

I was wondering what an "FOID" card was... Ohio is also a state that does not require the registration of flintlock weapons... at least that I know of.

Firearm Owners Identification card....F.O.I.D.

have to have one in Illinios to buy or sell or posses a firearm or ammo....but blackpowder weapons dont have to be registered

here in Michigan, no card....just a permit if its concealed...try that with me fishtail!!?!?!.....otherwise if an antiguw or repro blackpowder...no register

last time went to Canaidia....as long as it was a (historical) sword or blackpowder weapon....they didnt consider them a real wepon...just couldnt cross with the black powder

tho interestingly enough they do consider a Katana a real wepaon...to many problems i suppose

as long as all weapons are locked and checked....i have yet had any issues....lots of looks....no issues......i have a TSA approved gun box....long enough fer me longgun.....the box itsaelf is 40lbs...dont take much before i am over the 50lbs limit....and my swords are usaully in a big duffle bag....as long as the handlers cant be stabbed...the pass muster

[michaelsbagley]

I was wondering what an "FOID" card was... Ohio is also a state that does not require the registration of flintlock weapons... at least that I know of.

Firearm Owners Identification card....F.O.I.D.

have to have one in Illinios to buy or sell or posses a firearm or ammo....but blackpowder weapons dont have to be registered

here in Michigan, no card....just a permit if its concealed...try that with me fishtail!!?!?!.....otherwise if an antiguw or repro blackpowder...no register

last time went to Canaidia....as long as it was a (historical) sword or blackpowder weapon....they didnt consider them a real wepon...just couldnt cross with the black powder

tho interestingly enough they do consider a Katana a real wepaon...to many problems i suppose

as long as all weapons are locked and checked....i have yet had any issues....lots of looks....no issues......i have a TSA approved gun box....long enough fer me longgun.....the box itsaelf is 40lbs...dont take much before i am over the 50lbs limit....and my swords are usaully in a big duffle bag....as long as the handlers cant be stabbed...the pass muster

Thanks for answering that for me M.A. d'Dogge!

Not to take this discussion too far off topic (and a moderator may please feel free to move this if they feel it appropriate), but one strange not to well known law in Canada that is applied very un-levelly (I know it is not a word).

Knives over a certain length (I think it is 12 inches) are illegal to carry while swords are perfectly legal. I had a custom made sabre confiscated at customs because that particular customs official decided to perceive my single edged sabre as a long bladed knife rather than a sword. This was a very expensive lesson for me to learn, I strongly suggest anyone travelling over that border use extreme cautioin when it comes to long single edged bladed weapons.

[oderlesseye]

.i have a TSA approved gun box....long enough fer me longgun.....the box itsaelf is 40lbs...dont take much before i am over the 50lbs limit...

M.A.d'Dogge Where'd ye get it?

It got suggested to me to avoid all this garbage with airports, TSA and fear of theft, is to go to my local gun shop and have them Fed-Ex my guns to a gun shop at or near my destination...They have a license to ship weapons..

Edited March 31, 2009 by oderlesseye

[Guest]

is to go to my local gun shop and have them Fed-Ex my guns to a gun shop at or near my destination...They have a license to ship weapons..

I'm not 100% sure how that works.... two years ago, I checked with UPS... and they say a gun has to be shipped overnight Air.... for a long gun (it ain't a rifle...but that's quibbling ) that was just too expensive.... but Hey, I can take off the lock, and then it's just gun parts....

It has been suggested that we should move this topic up to the gun thread....Ok... we are typing about getting to PiP, but other Pyrates may be interested in what we are typing about if they have to fly with black powder guns....

The original thread is locked.... but being the super sexy cool pyrate wot I am ... I'll start a new one.....

So lets move this discussion where others can see it....

[Guest]

In the PiP thread, we have been discussing how to safely and legally fly with black powder guns.... yeah, I know that Cascabel has a post alla bout that.... (but it's locked)

SO We're (I'm ?) moving it here so everyone, not just th' Pyrates going to PiP can discuss problems, hassles, or just how to do it.....

A link to TSA's web page about flying with guns would look really good right about here... so I'll just edit this post and add one .....

To be truthfully Honest, I've only had some minor hustles with TSA, but they were alla 'bout the home made (hard sided 1/2inch Pine crate ) I was locking my guns in...

(I still gotta write Kirk... Turkland... whatever...... the guy's name is ... the guy wot runs Dixie Gun Works....and ask his if he can write up some guidelines for TSA (who don't know much about black powder guns ) how to inspect a muszzleloading firearm...(you want to know if its unloaded... just "spring " the barrel.... hey, we know that ....the TSA people don't....)

We ain't terrorist. we ain't bad, were just trying to play by the rules..... Educate ourselves, and educate TSA.... make alla us happier...

[Guest]

My Boss (Carol) is into this total Tony Robbins kinda thing.... act now.... woh..... with that in mind, I just sent a message to Dixie Gun Works asking if they could write something to the TSA explaining how black powder Muzzleloaders work.... saftey check, that sorta thing..... I hope they follow through....

But a few more pyrates asking them wouldn't hurt......

[Diosa De Cancion]

We ain't terrorist. we ain't bad, were just trying to play by the rules..... Educate ourselves, and educate TSA.... make alla us happier...

I would agree with ya Patrick. We get the TSA asking questions, and most of the time it's because they really don't know what they're dealing with. Sure, we're around these things all of the time, but they're not. Often, I find if you talk to them and explain what ya got, what you're doing, etc... they're much cooler about everything.

I did love West Palm Beach though, one of the TSA women was a pirate so everyone there knew what we were sending through and just wanted to know what we had :) Much easier that way.

Just be open and communicative. I often put my cell phone number and name on the outside of the box on a piece of paper that says something along the lines of 'if you need to contact me about the contents... call.... ' and keep my phone on till I get on the plane. Haven't had any problems before, but i figure it can't hurt to be extra accessible.

For swords, we use a large thick cardboard box (Think guitar box) with the swords wrapped with cloth inside. We duct tape it shut and also leave a roll of duct tape on the inside of the box so if they do decide to open it, they can tape her back up again. So far, no one has cared because we always tell them what's coming at the gate and they note it.

If they know what they are going to see in the x-ray they are not as startled when they see it and don't really care.

[Iron Bess]

Oh Aye...

When I used to travel with all my bladed weaponry, I purchsed a hard shell, locking golf club carrier. It's made for for folks who travel with golf clubs.

It fit rapiers and broadsword alike. It was wide enough for the fanciest quillions and it always went through inspection without a hitch.

And since my swords are all custom made I was protecting my investments as well. It was well worth the cost and made my life SO much easier when I traveled with all my stuff.

[Capt. Sterling]

I think Diosa has nailed it... communication is the key, although with all the anti gun nuts out there things can be difficult... if you call ahead of time and let them know they usually will have someone there to meet you and take a look at what you are traveling with... so far no problems... it also doesn't hurt to call the NRA, they used to have an actual list of airlines that were "friendly" to hunters and the like. Still the TSA is their own animal... hopefully someone will fight this until it is settled along the lines of what the Supreme Court just passed...continuing to support our right to keep and use our guns.

[michaelsbagley]

I think Diosa has nailed it... communication is the key, although with all the anti gun nuts out there things can be difficult... if you call ahead of time and let them know they usually will have someone there to meet you and take a look at what you are traveling with... so far no problems... it also doesn't hurt to call the NRA, they used to have an actual list of airlines that were "friendly" to hunters and the like. Still the TSA is their own animal... hopefully someone will fight this until it is settled along the lines of what the Supreme Court just passed...continuing to support our right to keep and use our guns.

To continue on in the spirit of my last post this -> "anti gun nuts", is easy to perceive as the opposite end of the spectrum in the manner of those who act and talk like "every act of regulation is a step to "THEM" taking my guns away" paranoia is just as harmful.

So lets all try and be a little respectful of the fact that this forum in all likelyhood holds people who believe in either end of the spectrum, and all the various shades of grey in between and try to avoid name calling and negative stereotyping. Just my 2 cents.

[Capt. Sterling]

Right then, the anti gun persons

[Iron Bess]

*Sticky Fingers Sterling*

Oooh... there is just something I LOVE about that!

[Capt. Sterling]

I would respond Bess, but seems every time I do....