Standing Armies

[Jib]

I am currently reading a book on the English Civil War and was going over a section that stated that the English did not have a standing army but instead used militia or "trained bands". I wondered when full time military forces first appeared...

[michaelsbagley]

I am currently reading a book on the English Civil War and was going over a section that stated that the English did not have a standing army but instead used militia or "trained bands". I wondered when full time military forces first appeared...

Not an easy question.... As far as I have been able to figure, standard (in as much as standards exist in this period) started to appear with greater frequency as the 17th century wore on. I haven't done any real reading on the English Civil War, but I had thought that the ECW was when uniformed soldiers first started to appear.... But I could be wrong on that, I know John Churchill First Duke of Marlborough was one of the biggest driving forces for standardizing the English Armies of the period, a lot of the conventions he put into place wound up defining warfare well through the 18th century.

[Jib]

I am currently reading a book on the English Civil War and was going over a section that stated that the English did not have a standing army but instead used militia or "trained bands". I wondered when full time military forces first appeared...

Not an easy question.... As far as I have been able to figure, standard (in as much as standards exist in this period) started to appear with greater frequency as the 17th century wore on. I haven't done any real reading on the English Civil War, but I had thought that the ECW was when uniformed soldiers first started to appear.... But I could be wrong on that, I know John Churchill First Duke of Marlborough was one of the biggest driving forces for standardizing the English Armies of the period, a lot of the conventions he put into place wound up defining warfare well through the 18th century.

I imagine it would be similar with the navy?

[michaelsbagley]

Quite the opposite... Although again this is going from heresy, I believe the Navy's were almost a full century or more behind in standardizing themselves.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Correct Mr. Bagley...

The first true Uniformed Navy (English) was in the 1740s.

Master Foxe and others have much information on this such as the slops contracts et all.

[Fox]

It rather depends whether you're talking about 'uniformed' or 'standing'. As far as the Navy goes, in Britain at least, officers were uniformed in 1747 and seamen over a century later. However, a standing Navy had been in existence since the riegn of Henry VIII. However, although many officers and some petty-officers made a naval career there was no standardised length of service for the seamen, who signed on for one voyage or season.

Dating the origins of a standing army in England depends to some extent on how one defines 'army'. The Honourable Artillery Company has a history stretching back hundreds of years. The oldest of what you'd call the 'regular' regiments date their history back to the Restoration in 1660.

The trouble with a standing army is that except during time of civil war (which nobody wanted to go back to) there's not much use for a standing army in an island with a strong navy, and it was feared that an army would be an expensive way of the ruler enforcing his will - people feared a martial state, particularly after the misuse of the New Model Army in Cromwell's time. The only other reason troops would be needed would be for an overseas expedition, but since in theory they would only be needed for that expedition they could be raised and disbanded especially.

[Jib]

I recall watching a show on PBS entitled "Battlefield Britian" presented by a father and son team. They did a piece on the Battle of the Boyne which they implied had the first red coat uniforms for the British forces (red was the cheapest fabric at the time). I don't know much about these gents but the show was interesting. I don't recall if they mentioned a standing army at that time.

[Fox]

Peter and Dan Snow: Peter is a political commentator and journalist of long standing, Dan is an historian and nice chap. If you watch the Armada episode with eagle eyes you might spot a familiar face.

The New Model Army (created 1644) were clothed in red - at least, the infantry were - and it caught on from there. Notwithstanding my previous post, I recall from somewhere in my grey fuzzy memory that one regiment (perhaps the Coldstream Guards) claim origin in the New Model Army, but I could be entirely wrong.

<EDIT> Wikipedia has it that both the Coldstream and Grenadier Guards originated in the NMA, and dates the formation of the English Army to 1661 - but draw your own conclusions as to wiki's reliability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_British_Army