AVERY AND KIDD

[HAWKINS]

I believe I am almost able to show that Avery and Kidd conspired to retrieve a great treasure from the Indian Ocean. The last pieces of the jigsaw ~ ER Snow's papers at Boston University and the Peasbody Institute in Salem holds the answer. I have permission to inspect these papers from Dolly, ER Snow's daughter. This will re-write the history books.

For more information on my conspiracy theory ~ go to my web site at Captain Kiddwww.pfrh.supanet.com ~ where all is revealed.

Hawkins

[JoshuaRed]

All the best luck to ye mate! While I sincerely hope you're spot on, I remain skeptical. Have you had a handwriting expert analyze those charts against known samples of Kidd's hand?

[HAWKINS]

JoshuaRed ,

Please give me a little more credence. You obviously are not familiar with the history!! Before you start challenging me ~ I suggest you do some homework first!!

Pardon me if I dont post using "olde English" language. My grandparents from Somerset spoke it for real ~ and I find it a bit ridiculous to see the strained efforts of Americans trying to replicate what was ~ a real and earthy dialect.

Anyway ~ if you want a bit of proof ~ go to a site I set up that shows an image of Kidd's island ~ which, after all was the inspiration behind RL Stevenson's Treasure Island.

I thought this section of the forum was for genuine researchers?? and historians?? ~ with a modicum of knowledge??

http://www.captainkidd.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SITEUPDATE.htm' target='_blank'>

[HAWKINS]

JoshuaRed ,

Please give me a little more credence. You obviously are not familiar with the history!! Before you start challenging me ~ I suggest you do some homework first!!

Pardon me if I dont post using "olde English" language. My grandparents from Somerset spoke it for real ~ and I find it a bit ridiculous to see the strained efforts of Americans trying to replicate what was ~ a real and earthy dialect.

Anyway ~ if you want a bit of proof ~ go to a site I set up that shows an image of Kidd's island ~ which, after all was the inspiration behind RL Stevenson's Treasure Island.

I thought this section of the forum was for genuine researchers?? and historians?? ~ with a modicum of knowledge??

http://www.captainkidd.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/SITEUPDATE.htm' target='_blank'>

[Fox]

Whoa tetchy there Hawkins!!

Joshua's question was perfectly valid and didn't sound like a serious challenge to me. Perhaps you are just a little insecure.

[JoshuaRed]

No need to be so testy. What part of

sincerely hope you're spot on,

don't you understand? I'm rooting for you, man! :) I merely said I was skeptical.

I have done my Kidd homework too, which is why I'm skeptical. Based on everything I've read (every major modern source on Kidd as well as some period sources) I feel that the man was too flustered, in too much of a rush to have time for such an elaborate project.

Btw, I like your site very much!

[Longarm]

Hawkins I have to agre with Red and Fox about being a bit touchy when asked a legit question. As a historian you know all about forgeries and people trying to cash in on others names and fame. I have read about Kidd and Avery and in everything I've read there was no mention of the two having ever met, let alone planed an expedition together. Your research could and would rewrite alot of history and you'll find no better supporters than on this forum. Trust me.

AS for taking offence at some our poor use of "olde English" most of us were only exposed to it thruogh t.v. and old movies. You'll find that if you'll take the time and patients to explain and teach what you know you will have a very willing bunch of good hearted pupils willing to learn from you.

So ease up and relax your among freinds here.

[Deacon Frye]

JoshuaRed ,

... Pardon me if I dont post using "olde English" language.  My grandparents from Somerset spoke it for real ~ and I find it a bit ridiculous to see the strained efforts of Americans trying to replicate what was ~ a real and earthy dialect.

Hawkins, you raise an interesting topic here, albeit in a somewhat hostile manner.

I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing the origin of the stereotypical "pirate accent" being discussed here in any depth.

It deserves it's own thread, and would be somewhat off-topic on this one.

Since this seems to be a pet peeve of yours, perhaps you'd be so kind as to do the honours?

[John Maddox Roberts]

Mate Hawkins:

Most of us are serious scholars of the pirate field. We are also pirates for fun.

On the serious side, I, too, am a skeptic, as all scholars should be. I am skeptical most of all of things I would most like to believe. The will to believe has been the pitfall of many a reputable scholar. Need I say more than: "the Hitler Diaries?" A number of fine scholars had their reputations ruined by falling for that transparent hoax. They just wanted to believe it so much.

On the fun side, half the fun of being a pirate is talking in a ridiculous accent and spouting pseudo-nautical jargon. As near as I can tell, the stereotypical pirate accent was invented by Robert Newton for his impersonation of Long John Silver in the Disney "Treasure Island." In British theater actors use "Mummerset," an undefined but vaguely rural British accent that belongs to no real locale. Our little subculture uses a nautical version of the same.

When we play pirate, we like to dress up authentically and we argue endlessly over arms and clothing, but I've never seen a modern pirate who had his teeth pulled for authenticity, or lash stripes administered by plastic surgery, or even a few syphilitic lesions. So, scholarship where it's required, fun the rest of the time.

[Fox]

I have to agree with John, I think the "poyrayte" accent started with Robert Newton in Treasure Island, but it does go a little deeper. Long John Silver was a Bristol man, and Newton himself came from Dorset so was speaking in his native accent when he played Silver. Two years later he played Blackbeard, supposedly another Bristol man so the accent came out again and stuck for good.

Sorry for being off topic.

[Deacon Frye]

Well, since we're doing this here ...

I'm sorry to say I haven't read them, but my understanding is that the English author Jeffery Farnol's pirate novels, such as Black Bartlemy's Treasure (1920) set the tone, so to speak, for "pirate talk" and served as an inspiration for Newton, as well as Charles Laughton in Captain Kidd and Tyrone Power in The Black Swan.

But Newton was the master.

For those of you who are sword fans, BTW, Farnol was Ewart Oakeshott's uncle, and a major influence.

[JoshuaRed]

Apologies for continuing the off-topic banter, but Tyrone Power doesn't have much accent at all in the Black Swan, much like Costner in his horrid Robin Hood remake. Though Power did use some nifty jargon n' lingo. Laughton was terrific as Kidd however!

Now in Pirates, Mathau's accent seems much more of a thick cockney than anything based on Newton. Equally cool though.

Well, I guess this is sorta on-topic, as I did mention Kidd's name!

[Deacon Frye]

Apologies for continuing the off-topic banter, but Tyrone Power doesn't have much accent at all in the Black Swan, much like Costner in his horrid Robin Hood remake. Though Power did use some nifty jargon n' lingo. Laughton was terrific as Kidd however!

Now in Pirates, Mathau's accent seems much more of a thick cockney than anything based on Newton. Equally cool though.

Well, I guess this is sorta on-topic, as I did mention Kidd's name!

Good point, Joshua, there are two parts to this--the jargon and the accent/dialect.

[Nigel]

...much like Costner in his horrid Robin Hood remake. 

Good point, Joshua, there are two parts to this--the jargon and the accent/dialect.

How true!

I heard that they fired Costner's 'speech coach' during the early filming of the movie, and that he was livid. The coach had been helping him with his dialect.

I must admit, he sounded more like Garfield than like any Robin Hood I ever thought of. They shoulda kept the speech coach.

Now we are waaayy off topic.

[John Maddox Roberts]

Must've been a hell of a dialect he was teaching, since the English language didn't exist in the time of Richard I. The court spoke Norman French and the natives were still speaking Anglo-Saxon (actually, Anglo-Saxon refers to the culture, the language is Old English, as in Beowulf.)

[Red Maria]

John

Actually from 1100-1500 C.E. is considered Middle English. Old English aka Anglo-Saxon was ca. 450-1100 C.E. So the Common folk would be speaking Middle English. The court , however, was speaking French. I don't think that Ricahrd I let alone Robin Hood or the Sheriff of Nottingham. There are both Old & Middle English manuscripts at the Library.

And Alan Rickman acted rings around Kevin Costner!

[redhand]

I think we were discussing this issue (accents)

on another thread actually. Since sailors came from many

regions of england, and also Ireland, scottland, the colonies & etc.

I believe that it probable that over time all these accents

were more likely combined into one, not to mention certain

regional accents die out, the Irish are a good example of this,

with I believe less than five of the original regional accents

surviving.

BTW-Hawkins, you won't make many friends here mate by

verbally attacking someone who either asks a simple question

or simply doesn't agree with your thesis.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers

Redhand

[Longarm]

I doubt Mr. Hawkins will return to this site but if he does he wont be liking what I have to say to him. I've just spent several hours at his site on Captain Kidd and his theories on where Kidds treasure is buried and all I can say is, If this man were a gunner stay the hell away from him. He shoots himself in the foot so many times it's unbelievable. I admit I went there to find some ammunition against him after his very rude intrduction to this site. After all he fired the first round and no good pirate worth his salt shouldn't fire back. But this guy makes it so easy it would be pathtic to fire on him. He states one thing then turns around and contradicts it later on. And you should read his correspondents with one of the curraters of the British museum in charge of maps and cartiology this guy is unbelievable! I could go on and on but there is just so much one can type in a day. One has to see to believe so go to his site to see how not to present your case on a historical topic. If it wasn't so pathetic I'ld of laughed my ass off. Good-Bye and Good Redance Mr. Paul Hawkins!

[redhand]

Well I think we've pretty much covered this

topic before as to why exactly ANY pirate

would want/try to bury "treasure" is preposterous.

Basically it would be like tryingto find a needle in the

old haystack, or leaving it somewhere where there woul;d be

even the slightest chance of someone else finding it.

I more or less surmised from his angry outburst that he wasn't

a legitimate historian, after all most all professional historians

are quite used to being challenged, and are taught how to deal

and defend their ideas, research & etc. Have you ever seen the movie

"The Island"? In it the pirates speak a type of pidgeon enlish/french

spanish & nautical slang which I thought was pretty interesting

idea from an anthrological standpoint. There were several native

american "trade" languages based on this self same principal....

The Chinook trade language of the Pac. NW and the Mobialian

trade language of the SE. Each had it's roots based in the original

tribal languge, but then over time added words from, in the case of

the Chinookian trade language... english, french, spanish, and even

russian. It's not that inconceivable that there might have been a language

based on the same idea in use in the caribbean.

Redhand

[JoshuaRed]

I'm really gonna have to give the Island a viewing. In fact I think I'll put it in my trusty Netflix qeue right now.

As for Kidd buring his treasure in so elaborate a scheme as that Hawkins fellow suggested, here's why I said I was skeptical: when Kidd was depositing some of his plunder at Gardiners Island and Block Island, before being arrested by Bellomont in Boston, he wrote a letter (I think it was to Mr. Gardiner, who's farm was on the island). This letter was telling Gardiner where he had buried the stuff, in case Kidd was not able to retrieve it himself.

In this letter there are no elaborate codes, clues or riddles. He merely said something to the effect of "you'll find the chest I buried on the top of the tallest hill on the island. It's near a large boulder and is marked with a small rock pile. The chest is buried about a foot deep."

Bear in mind I am paraphrasing from memory. It's really an interesting note. I'll have to find it in my books so I can transcribe it here. But that's the gist of it. Very simple. After all, gold that can't be recovered doesn't do anyone any good.