Shipwreck recovery

[Dorian Lasseter]

I know there was a thread about shipwrecks being found, so here's a new one....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_...wreck_discovery

"TAMPA, Fla. – Florida deep-sea explorers who found $500 million in sunken treasure two years ago say they have discovered another prized shipwreck: A legendary British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago.

Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's looking for an even bigger jackpot. The company's research indicates the HMS Victory was carrying 4 tons of gold coins that could be worth considerably more than the treasure that Odyssey raised from a sunken Spanish galleon in 2007, co-founder Greg Stemm said ahead of a news conference set for Monday in London."

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

How are they armed? We need to fit out and put to sea IMMEDIATELY if not sooner! Who wants to go "help" them recover some of that booty? Four tons o'gld is too much for one ship to handle. I say we "relieve" them of some of that "burden!" Tis only the right thing to do.

Bo

[blackjohn]

I've spent the last two months working on stuff about underwater cultural heritage. If this is a British man o' war, then it is still technically owned by the British navy. Most governments are beginning to press the point home that, regardless of passage of time, the vessel still belongs to the country of origin.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7m.htm

Just a month ago the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage went into effect, but alas, the UK hasn't ratified it. Not that it matters in this case, it being a British naval vessel.

[Coastie04]

Just because it belongs to a government still does not mean that it cannot be excavated with permission (and usually a large portion of all loot found). This is fine if the wreck is either in that home country's waters (within 24 nm from land) or in international waters. It gets more tricky when that warship is in foreign national waters, say French or Spanish. Then, you need permission from both governments, and each government generally wants their share of the loot. Further complicating this is the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), which extends to 200 nm from land. In this zone, it's international waters when concerned with commerce and enforcement of laws, but the country 'owns' the resources found in that area, such as fish, oil, etc. Well, do shipwrecks with large stashes of gold fall under a country's control if it's in their EEZ? Last I heard, this is an ongoing debate. Add to this the likelihood of a ship being a warship of a nation that no longer exists. Does France have a claim to warships that belonged to the French monarchy? Does Germany have claim to warships from before WWII? Technically the governments are different, but is it part of that country's national heritage? Well, what if it's a USSR warship? Which country which now makes up a fragmented former USSR owns it? It's a messy situation that generally takes cooperation from many different organizations and governments.

Coastie

[blackjohn]

Absolutely right. Given permission it is possible.

UNCLOS, from what I've been told, leaves us with an interesting gap between the 24 mile limit and the 200 mile limit. Natural resources go out to the 200 mile limit, but the underwater cultural heritage jurisdiction of the coastal state only extends to the 24 nm limit. And I agree, it is fascinating. According to everything I have read, successor states retain rights to their forebears vessels. Noteworthy is the case of the French ship La Belle, and the situation with the CSS Alabama in French waters. At this point, I suspect most states have something similar to our Sunken Military Craft Act.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-12a.htm

[LadyBarbossa]

Ooo... wicked!

Yeah, watched "Treasure Quest" which talked about this. Rather interesting.

~Lady B

[Story]

Most governments are beginning to press the point home that, regardless of passage of time, the vessel still belongs to the country of origin. Just a month ago the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage went into effect, but alas, the UK hasn't ratified it. Not that it matters in this case, it being a British naval vessel.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090201/NEWS...higan+shipwreck

The French government said it still owns the Griffon (also spelled Griffin), a 17th-Century ship built by legendary explorer La Salle that may have been discovered in northern Lake Michigan. France filed a claim to the vessel Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Grand Rapids, escalating a legal battle over who owns and has authority to retrieve artifacts from the long-lost vessel.

See also http://greatlakesexploration.org/expedition.htm

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Whatever happened to "finders keepers?" I think if the governments have been actively searching for these things, then they have a fair claim, but if they been lying about abandoned for 2-3-400 years, then to the finder and investor belong the spoils. Governments have billions to invest in wars and such, but only get intersested in history and science when someone else goes to the lengths to make a discovery. Did these governments cough up anything to the research and effort? I don't think so. My support is to the Pyrates what found the treasure! :angry:

Bo

[Joe Pyrat]

I was watching a documentary on Mel Fisher just the other night. When he found the Nuestra Senora de Atocha he initially offered the state of Florida a sizable portion of the take. They got greedy along with the Feds and tried to make off with the whole thing. The case went before the Supreme Court and the Court found that Fisher owned it all. Since then the Feds have passed laws stating they own anything found on the ocean floor, or something to that effect and states, notably Florida, are claiming ownership of the ground underlying the ocean near their shores (which is a problem for boats in passage who want to anchor, exercising the maritime law related to freedom of navigation). This may also fly in the face of historical maritime law stating the salver is entitled to the cargo or a large portion of the cargo of any salvaged vessel (or something to that effect). Foreign nationals (France) claiming property that is in either US or Canadian waters (not clear on that exactly) throws another wrench into the works. There is also the issue (assuming she was sunk in action) that the ship was defeated and subject to the pirze laws in effect at the time. How about arguing that failure to attempt salvage in a reasonable amount of time constitutes abandonment?

In any event, should make for an interesting case. I can just imagine packs of lawyers salivating at that very thought. :angry:

Actually if I was a lawyer I think I'd just love to get involved in this case, it would be fascinating to argue.

Cap'n Bo, my blunderbuss just arrived and I got me new cutlass so when do we ship out mate?

[Coastie04]

Well, to throw yet another wrench into the mix, there's also the sentiment of treating a wreck site as a grave and generally leaving it all alone (such as the Titanic). I think that for the most part, the finding organization and the government can come up with some sort of agreement that both allows the government to get a large share, while also allowing the salvagers to cover their costs and make a handsome profit. However, there are always exceptions.

Coastie

[blackjohn]

The French government said it still owns the Griffon (also spelled Griffin), a 17th-Century ship built by legendary explorer La Salle that may have been discovered in northern Lake Michigan. France filed a claim to the vessel Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Grand Rapids, escalating a legal battle over who owns and has authority to retrieve artifacts from the long-lost vessel.

Hopefully some join effort will be undertaken to investigate, preserve and/or raise her. Here's the link the the CSS Alabama organization. They seem to have established good working relationship.

http://www.css-alabama.com/challenge.html

[blackjohn]

Whatever happened to "finders keepers?"

It doesn't work. The finders are usually only interesting in one thing - $$$$ - and they've been known to destroy important non-monetary value items to get to the treasure.

Here's an example for you of "finders keepers" not working -- the wreck of the pirate ship Whydah. How much detailed information have you ever seen come out of hands of the owners? Just about zero, right? Right.

Counter that with an example of a ship that was excavated by an organized group of archaeologists willing to share their finds, ala La Belle.

I think if the governments have been actively searching for these things, then they have a fair claim, but if they been lying about abandoned for 2-3-400 years, then to the finder and investor belong the spoils.

Governments think differently. As do archaeologists.

Governments have billions to invest in wars and such, but only get intersested in history and science when someone else goes to the lengths to make a discovery. Did these governments cough up anything to the research and effort? I don't think so. My support is to the Pyrates what found the treasure!

In this specific case, I don't know. It could be that they have a contract to develop deep water sonar for the Navy. Or they want to sell sonar to the highest bidder. But I don't know.

But I do know this, the government does spend money searching for things. While I was in Sanctuaries I worked with an archaeologist who hitched a ride on the NR-1 in hopes of finding the Alligator. And even now, some people are on the lookout for some stuff in some place that I probably shouldn't mention. Hahaha.... I just remembered... when I was in Sanctuaries I had full access to the archaeologist's wreck database... and... never mind. I think I'll shut up now.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I know what you're saying, and no offense to any here on the board, I just think of how hypocrytical governments are concerning treasures and artifacts. Especially the British. How much Egyptian artifacts have they stolen from the middle east and other parts of the world? Our own governmment has no preoblem digging up native burial grounds and dispalying the bones of people without any thoughts of sanctity. I know Congress dealt with this years ago and a token victory was won by natives, but the process of removing things from sacred ground continues. My real beef is with the double standards used at all levels.

But really, I am a pyrate after all, and I wouldn't feel right if I didn't cheer for the dark side over the Guvmt.!!

Bo

[Patrick Hand]

I have some really mixed emotions about this....

On one hand... a ship has been lost for a really long time.... "Hey.. France, or Spain or whoever... where was it lost."... "we don't know..." someone else finds it, and they (France, or Spain or whoever) wants it all back..... So why bother....

But on the other hand... someone just looking for loot, doesn't care about the archaeological aspects (unless they can sell it) they only want the loot....

Somehow there needs to be a kinda compromise.... something to make it worth while for the salvager's, but also a way to protect the find.....

Yeah... human nature... so I'l take off th' rose colored glasses......

slightly off topic....

Our own governmment has no preoblem digging up native burial grounds

Eeergh... not in California...

This hasn't happened yet. (well maybe it has...)... It's kinda common up in the mountains.....but Indian burial grounds have been uncovered during road construction.... the crews get laid off until the archaeologist and Indians can figure out what to do about the "sacred ground"... OK... so far so good.... But what happens when a bulldozer operator has some bills he has to pay, and he "discovers" he's about to be outta work because he just uncovered another burial ground....?

[blackjohn]

I have some really mixed emotions about this....

Speaking as a just another citizen...

Personally, I don't really care about the treasure. As far as I'm concerned it is of little value, so they can have it. I just want them to get to it using archaeologically sound methods which allow for retrieval of the important artifacts. Then I want them to care for said artifacts, display them, and publish reports on their findings. Is that asking too much?

[blackjohn]

Our own governmment has no preoblem digging up native burial grounds

Eeergh... not in California...

The federal gov't has a bunch of legislation on that. Hell, just look at what the anthropologists had to go through to get a look at Kennewick Man. As a bystander, to me it seems to have swung to far the other way. And I'm part native american!

[Cascabel]

I have some really mixed emotions about this....

Speaking as a just another citizen...

Personally, I don't really care about the treasure. As far as I'm concerned it is of little value, so they can have it. I just want them to get to it using archaeologically sound methods which allow for retrieval of the important artifacts. Then I want them to care for said artifacts, display them, and publish reports on their findings. Is that asking too much?

One must also consider that the "treasure" is also archaelogically important. There are historical reasons for it being there in the first place !!

It could be looted items from native people, war related booty, personal wealth, church treasures, etc. The gold and silver bars because of dates and assay markings are historically significant, and of course coins carry dates and other markings of value. Many monetarily valuable objects have stories to tell of trade routes, political upheavals, conquests, alliances, wars, and so forth. I really hate to see the treasure not studied for its historical significance in addition to the monetary worth.

>>>>> Cascabel

[LadyBarbossa]

Wow... three threads in seperate subforums on the HMS Victory find.

Anyways....

It's a catch 22 about these shipwrecks. But, I have to fuss a bit about the Governments... I haven't seen them actively seeking these wrecks for the past 200 yrs non-stop! Just infuriates me when these Governments want an "all or nothing" claim to these wrecks. You REALLY think these Governments will dive for the artifacts and no the gold and silver? I don't think the Governments would have an interest at all in recovery of artifacts plus the wealth. They recover ONLY the wealth and definitely destroy the artifacts just like Graverobbers.

Granted there are some marine salvage groups out there that seek the wealth and care nothing about the artifacts or little about artifacts. But what there is retreivable then it's more than welcome.

:::Shrugs::: I guess we shall find out with the HMS Victory what they are able to retrieve.

I joined up on the Odyssey's update list to get the low down of the HMS Victory.

~Lady B