So What?

[Milamber]

So pirates plundered coasts and other ships... o well. what affect have they had on our civilization today?(looking for examples any ideas?)

[Matty Bottles]

Well, piracy is still a threat to commercial shipping (and to port cities along the Indian ocean.) In fact, I read somewhere that several SBS and SAS veterans started a "ship retrieval" company to board captured ships, kill or otherwise incapacitate the pirate threat, free the crew (if still on board and still alive) and generally prevent thugs and villains from setting the ship controls on autopilot and leaving the ship to run aground along the coast somewhere.

[Milamber]

Thanks i didn't know that. where did you read that? i still would like to know more so if anyone else has any info please post it

[JoshuaRed]

The English & French buccaneers waged a private war on the Spanish in the Carribean throughout most of the 1600's that changed the course of history in the Western Hemisphere. Without the constant guerilla warfare of the pirates there, England, Frace and the Netherlands may not have been able to loosen the stronghold Spain had on the New World's vast wealth.

[hitman]

I think the legacy of pirates must be considered quite truthfuly varied. In this post I'm primarilly relying on the assements of Mahon as I consider his to be the best refrence book to have in the sucess and failure of naval tactics. (apparently Theodoore Rosevelt and Kieser Wilheilm agreed with me on this) The raids of the privateers in the golden age of piracy must be considered a major sucess in both the hot and cold wars waged agianst spain. However there are several other examples of piracy being a flop as a tatic of war. ( note the avatar)Mahons assement was that to be successful privateers need a main fleet in thier host country, it need not equal the strength of its opponets but merely be considered a viable threat. During the golden age of piracy the British were allied with the Dutch this alliance gave them a combined fleet that although in no way an outright match for the Spanish did provide enough of a threat to force the Spanish to divide there intrest between the protection of trade and preparedness for a main fleet engagement. As oppossed to this let us take the impact of my own beloved brethren the confederate commerce raider. With no real fleet the impact of ships like the C.S.S. Alabama was of little or no use to the Confederacy as the Union had plenty of ships to defend agianst them. Now this might seem odd given the success of the Alabama but it must be rembered she is now on the bottom of the ocean off the coast of France. (damned waterlogged ammo) Now where does this leave us in regards to the legacy and or effect of piracy...... Well we can obviously state that its long term effect was to bring peace beyond the line. Yet it was not always the success it could have been Today Brittania no longer rules the waves (Let me quess Foxe "Damned rebelous colonies" ) Would this be the case it if it wasn't for the U.S. Navy? Would the U.S. Navy be here if piracy was the most successful method of sea borne warfare? In the end the historical legacy of the pirate is more than just fodder for countless boy's own adventure sagas nor just an incredible period of witch to rember and debate it is an endelible mark on the history of sea power witch until the advent of the moderen Air Force was the most influential form of might to bless/curse the earth. Whever we read about the wars and battles fought by land or sea the pirate has left his jagged mark period.

[hitman]

I have been wonderin why this thread hasn't recieved more attention seems a good topic but then who knows. I saw this story last night and new it must belong here so here goes

Way back when the first American congress passed and old George Washington himself signed into law the Alien Tort Reform Act. This act was created so that if a pirate had American backers one could seek damages from those backers in American courts. Today however several human rights orginazations are using it to force an end to U.S. company's human rights abuses over seas. The case getting the most attention envolves unocal. During the cunstruction of its pipeline through Burma the Burmesse army (known for its human rights abuses world wide) was tasked to provide security for the pipe line. They also provided forced labour and unocal provided them with a handy place to rape murder and other wise run amock. The sins commit along this pipe line's route are as notorious as any from recent histoty and thanks to our fore fathers unocal is going to pay for its decison to dance with the devil. As a conservitave I'm a little concerened by the ramifications of this as far as future lawsuits however if it sticks a cutlass up the a** of the Burmesse then for now I am all for it. Looks like one more legacy for the pirates of old...... Human Rights?

As a quick ? why is it our own beloved bleeding heart Angus MacVox let me beat him too this one.

[Matty Bottles]

http://www.cargolaw.com/presentations_pira...tml#anti_piracy

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Pirates actually developed an early form of medical insurance. They were to first to provide a set rate of monitary compensation for injuries. This was later picked up on by the Royal Navy and eventually developed into the current medical insurance we have today.

Although pirates treated slaves as a commodity when they captured them, if a black male could get himself on the crew of a pirate ship, it was one of the most empowering situations he could be in, as he was treated as an equal by his shipmates. That was not the case anywhere on land or sea for another hundred+ years.

[Capt. Morgan]

The US Navy SEALs, member of the US Coast Guard, and certain units in the US Marines STILL TO THIS DAY receive training on how to board and search suspected pirate vessels (especially the Coast Guard)... the pirates are still out there, ladies and gents... some in the Caribbean, A LOT in Asia... pirates still effecting us today? You bet!

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Another forward-thinking concept on pirate ships was that a crew could vote on the punishment inflicted upon their fellow shipmates who were in violation of their ship's articles. A crew could overturn the captain's authority if they all agreed that he was in the wrong and elect someone else as captain. This was quite something, considering the often brutal punishment that the Navy inflicted upon the servicemen of the day. Until you were caught, you were much better off on a pirate than in the navy.

I'm not trying to say that pirates were the founders of democracy or that they were a great bunch of guys- they weren't. But they did have some surprisingly forward-thinking and democratic processes in place long before they came into use in society as a whole. Thier history is such a strange blend of contradictions- that what fascinates me about them.

[Zorg]

An ta add a polytical line, the Ships Articles from the 18th C may well have served as a template for the American government. Lots of the boys, including Hamilton, were smugglers, and wouldv had knowledge of the "company agreement" on board private vessles. :)

[Milamber]

Very interesting points anything else?

[Scupper]

When I was in the Navy as a door gunner I spent many an hour on patrol along Asian coasts looking for pirates and thier plundered victims.

Scupper

['Salem Bob']

I would respectfully suggest thet privateers ought not be considered pirates in considering Mahans principles (or just in examining Early Modern to Early 19th century history - actually late 19th, if one considers that New York issued letters of marque for the Spanish American War, and indeed some of these letters of Marque took prizes).

Pirates are/were meraly seagoing theives who stole from all and sundry they could lay hands on, without any restraint outside of their own opinions - often attacking and stealing from their fellow countrymen, and operating in tiomes of peace. Privateers and letters of marque are in essence armed forces on the order of a naval militia, answering to a government and abiding by a set of recognized rules and conventions (other than private rules they concocted on their own), and attacking the armed forces and disrupting the shipping of an enemy force - not randomly attacking all and sundry.

Colonial privateers in the various wars against France and Spain, or in the American Revolution were akin in spirit and legal standing to the armed militias supplementing the regular armed forces . There is a world of difference between that and piracy.

[Isabella]

There are currently pirates that kidnap Malaysians and Filipinos alike in the waters off the Philippines and Malaysia. I found sites by putting in to a search engine "modern Day Piracy".

[PirateQueen]

Pirates actually developed an early form of medical insurance.  They were to first to provide a set rate of monitary compensation for injuries.

I just finished watching an episode of Terry Jones' Medieval Lives on the History Channel. Tonight, it was about The Outlaw. Interestingly enough, it seems that monetary compensation for injuries was common among medieval English outlaw societies (e.g., so many shillings for loss of an eye, loss of a limb, even different amounts for teeth, depending on which teeth).

So, the pirates were merely utilizing a system that had been used by outlaws at "home" for a few hundred years already!

[hitman]

A valid point salembob and one I'm sure any self respecting privateer would agree with but if I may we all know many privateers continued on in they're role after war's end hence becoming pirates and that some pirates became privateers. As to their being really a portion of the countries millitary force I would agree with you however the men of those millitaries would not. In Evan Thomas's biogarphy of John Paul Jones ( the best one I've read to date) He speaks of the hatred Jones and the rest of the colonial Navy had for the privateers. From the material I've read it always appears that privateers were considered nothing more than a nessacry evil. ( this like any rule has some notable exceptions ie Frances Drake). Going back a little more towards the original tobic it has yet to be said that pirates ie the barbry corsairs are the reason we have a real navy. Millions for defence not a penny for tribute

[hitman]

As to the health insurance points of this thread if I recall the roman army had a simmilar setup. Just a thought

[Black Deacon]

What effect has pyracy/pirates had? Ever heard of an attorney. Ain't no more dangerous a pirate I know of t'day.

[Matty Bottles]

Aye, the worst kind of pirate. The kind that has the full weight of society and law behind 'em. It's enough to make me go, um, pirate.

['Salem Bob']

A valid point salembob and one I'm sure any self respecting privateer would agree with but if I may we all know many privateers continued on in they're role after war's end hence becoming pirates and that some pirates became privateers. As to their being really a portion of the countries millitary force I would agree with you however the men of those millitaries would not. In Evan Thomas's biogarphy of John Paul Jones ( the best one I've read to date) He speaks of the hatred Jones and the rest of the colonial Navy had for the privateers. From the material I've read it always appears that privateers were considered nothing more than a nessacry evil. ( this like any rule has some notable exceptions ie Frances Drake). Going back a little more towards the original tobic it has yet to be said that pirates ie the barbry corsairs are the reason we have a real navy. Millions for defence not a penny for tribute

Ahoy Hitman,

Jones and the Continental Navy officers hated them because sailors overwhelmingly choose to sign aboard privateers or the independant State Navy ships (almost every colony had one), because pay, shares of prizes, and terms of service were all more generous than the terms allowed by Congress - and so Jones and other captains sat idle without enough crewmen to sail Continental Navy vessels, while watching fully manned privateers, often more generously armed and equipped sailed past them. The Navy suffered from the same problem, to a lesser extent during the War of 1812.

As to the effectiveness of privateers vs. the Continental

Navy, there can be no question that the privateers made a far larger impact on the war and British shipping in general than the handful of frigates and sloops that were the official navy. The port of Salem alone was responsible for @ 100 letters of marque, capturing over 400 British vessels, which I believe is at least 4 times the number of ships sunk or taken by the entire Continental Navy.

Jones had "issues" with all and sundrey, from Congress, to his fellow captains, to the French and Dutch governments - I'd take his opinions with a grain of salt, considering his biases. His own career parallels Benedict Arnolds (being passed over for commissions and posts) in almost every aspect, save that of Arnolds treason. Both carried on their private wars within their respective branches of service.

Captain Jonathan Harridan's career is far more spectacular and successful than Jones - he was less flamboyant a personality, and of course the Navy isn't going to build up a Merchant seaman with a letter of marque on the side that during routine conveying of powder and military stores took more British ships than John Paul did in his entire career.

Your point is well taken regarding privateers who did not cease their careers when hostilities ceased - this was more characteristic of the last decade of the 17th century to the War of Jenkins Ear, than the fellows I was referencing of several generations later.

[Deacon Frye]

Hey, how'd I get in your signature picture?

[Coastie04]

Here's a lasting effect of piracy...The US Coast Guard. The original Revenue Cutter Service was developed to discourage smuggling and protect valid shipping.

Also, though it may just be a coincidence, the pirate ideal is much like the principles of the United States. Freedom through democracy. Though the US is much larger and has to revert to a representative democracy for the sake of efficiency, the democratic principles are still prevalent. Additionally, many pirate crews started as an escape from the strict British discipline found in the Navy. It was an escape from oppression, often a result of a press gang. Early colonists were also escaping the oppression of the British.

Coastie

[hitman]

Aye old John did hate just about everyone. More to the point though I used him as refrence to show a greater truth the worlds millitaries hated privateers. Don't get me wrong they'd hire em in a heart beat (and who can blame em pirate and privateer investment returns could run upwards of a thousand precent :) ) but in general I have to agree with yee (besides alot of my reaserch (if you can call it that) has been on the navy side a things to date) Intresting though how piracy has effected our country as coastie points out the Coast Guard was originally two services revenue and life boat with revenue goin after pirates, the navy was although established un used till the menace of the barbry corsairs, and the Ailen tort reform act still doing good today. With the additonal threat of moderen piracy plaqueing the east china sea area as well as other parts of the pacific I guess the last chapter has yet to be written on pirate legacies.

[Zorg]

Pirates actually developed an early form of medical insurance.  They were to first to provide a set rate of monitary compensation for injuries.

I just finished watching an episode of Terry Jones' Medieval Lives on the History Channel. Tonight, it was about The Outlaw. Interestingly enough, it seems that monetary compensation for injuries was common among medieval English outlaw societies (e.g., so many shillings for loss of an eye, loss of a limb, even different amounts for teeth, depending on which teeth).

So, the pirates were merely utilizing a system that had been used by outlaws at "home" for a few hundred years already! 

       

In fact, most of the guilds coming out of the medieval period had some form of health insurence or compensation, as well a pension and widows benefits. The only large organiztion I can think of that lacks this essential feature of human society is the Government of the United States...

unless, of course, youre in the congress, at which point you'll get millions AFTER you leave office.