Neck Ties

[Jib]

What is the proper term for the neck tie, neck wraps, that I often see worn in the 16 and early 1700's?

[LadyBarbossa]

I'm sure there are several names/terms. But there are a variety of them I believe.

I know best the cravats.

~Lady B

[MadL]

NOOSE?!??

[Graydog]

NOOSE?!??

Shiver me timbers! That not be a word we be usin fer what goes around a pirates neck! Nay, not to be said, tis bad luck doncha know?

I do believe that the lad is looking for the words Cravat or Neckcloth, both of which refer to that fine piece of workmanship that can be used to demonstrate a fellow's proper place in society as it were.

If I were to go into the future, I'd be discussin how necktie comes into use n the early 1800's. Mind ye, we not be havin a party, simply discribin a piece of cloth!

Fair Winds,

-Greydog

[Jack Roberts]

And they're really easy to make!

Take a strip of cloth 4" wide and about 30'' - 36'' long. Hem the edges.

Wrap around your neck and tie in a square knot.

For fancier attire, you can add lace to the ends and/or use a finer linen.

[Kenneth]

I use a square yard of linen, folded to about three inches in width and wrap around my neck, twist and stuff into my short sailors coat.. works for me.

[MadL]

Th' only thing I want 'round me own neck be a wench! I figures if'n th' executioner wants t' hang me then why should I helps him, he can tie he's Own Bloody knot!

[michaelsbagley]

Okay,

There were a few different styles used throughout the period... The Square one what I refer to as a Kercheif (not sure if it has a proper name, maybe "neck cloth"?)

Cravats were long and narrow (mine is 6 feet long and about 9 inches wide. They were tied a few different ways from what I have seen in period images, bows, or looped over (the best way I can think of to explain them in my post-PiP state)

Then there is a Steinkirk, which is a Cravat that has the ends twisted together and tucked into a buttonhole.

Hope this helps.

[MadL]

Hope this helps.

Be'n th' simple pirates as we be, perhaps pictures would help much more better. Might ye have any links in yer log?

...do naught fret, I promise I naught t' read th' articles!

[Jib]

Pictures would indeed help.

When did these neck clothes first appear?

[michaelsbagley]

The simple sailor's neck cloth can be seen tied around my neck in my photo on my sig line graphic. I have seen this style (the square one) tied in many different ways... It seems to run the entire length of the period for commoners and working class folks and sailors alike. Couldn;t tell you when it started though, just know it is fine for the entire GAoP.

The Steinkirk came into fashion in the last half of the period (some time in the late 1690s? I think) and can be seen in my picture of me as a Red Coat

I'll post picture of the bowed cravat or draped cravat later tonight... They are mostly early part of the period (they start to fall out of fashion as the Steinkirk becomes popular).

[Gentleman of Fortune]

For gentlemen, you want a really fine weave of linen... its almost gauze like. The proper name is "Lawn" linen. Hard to find and expensive. Next up would be Cambric linen... still a Finely woven linen, but I believe that originally came from France.

Even if you are not a proper gentleman, you want a fine weave of linen, as it is a bunch of linen to have around your neck if its thick and chunky.

Michael gives some good dimensions, and looks sharp in his kit.. (as usual!)

GoF

[Jib]

so does it help soak up the sweat or just itch?

[michaelsbagley]

so does it help soak up the sweat or just itch?

Linen is not itchy at all! In fact I find linen to wear better and after a few washings to be softer than cotton. But to more directly address your question, it can soak up sweat, but more often than not, I soak mine in water before I tie it on to keep me cool. There is also this old thread on the topic that has tons of cool information and great pics! Old Thread on the Pub about Neckercheifs

[MadL]

Ok, now I have read th' old thread 'n I have read this thread. I have look'd at th' picture drawns 'n at th' photos...but I still do naught see how one o' them neck clothes go 'round th' throat??

Now like I said, we be but o' simple pirate here, what with meself who still have be neck tie from Basic Train'in when me Drill Sargent got upset with me so he tied me very first tie he'mself....that knot last'd me four year o' good service 'n still hang in me closet this very day as I doubt I could remember how he did it!!! (me secret; t' take it off I slid th' short end just enough t' fit me head through th' hole, then t' put it back on I slid me head back through then pull'd th' short end back down again - as I stated afore, it STILL be tied with Sargent Adam's knot 'n hang in me closet t' this very day!)

So, could any o' ye blaggards show us how ye makes one o' them fancy knots with this neck cloth...but NAUGHT one where th' end be attach'd t' anythin' high please....

[Gentleman of Fortune]

We have two different things going on here...

a discussion about Cravats and a discussion about Neckerchiefs

The thing around your regular sailor's neck would be a neckerchief. Its a one yard square, folded diagonally, then "rolled" some what, put around your neck and tied in a not. If you were ever a boyscout, you should get the idea.

A Cravat is a long rectangular piece of linen (lawn, cambric etc) as Michael described above wrap it a few times around your neck tie it in the front, and presto.

If you are wearing a justaucorps, i'd go with a cravat. If you have a sailor jacket, wear the neckerchief.

GoF

[michaelsbagley]

There was an explanation on this forum somewhere that answered this question... I know because I asked that very same question about 2 years ago... I took a look for it last night, but couldn't find it. I'm guessing it was in a question asked in an off topic thread.

I do remember this much though, for the neckercheif, tie a square knot. If you don't know knots (and I didn't know this one at the time, heck I still know very little about knots), do a google search (or a search on you favourite search engine) and look up tieing a square knot, or how Boy Scout's tie their Kercheifs.

I tie my steinkirk the same way (with a square knot) and then twist the two ends together and tuck them in the top most buttonhole of my waistcoat (see above image of me as a red coat).

Tieing the various permutations of the cravat is an art that would take me too long to explain on a forum, not that I have even figured out that many of the variations.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

[Kenneth]

michaelsbagley you look awsome!

Found this..

“A cravatte is another kind of adornment for the neck being nothing else but a long towel put about the Collar, and so tyed before with a Bow Knott; this is the original of all such Wearings; but now by the Art and Inventions of the seamsters, there is so many new ways of making them, that it would be a task to name, much more to describe them.” —Randle Holme, Academy of Armory and Blazon, 1688.

Is this true?

"Early cravats were made of the lace that was used so much in the period, but people soon grew to prefer the softer feel of a linen or muslin (sheer cotton fabric) cravat. They developed intricate ways to fold and knot their cravats. A new style of wearing the cravat was invented in 1692 by French soldiers fighting in the Battle of Steinkirk. Too rushed to tie their cravats in an intricate knot, they simply twisted the ends of the cloth and stuck it through a buttonhole in their waistcoat or justaucorps. This style became known as the steinkirk cravat."

[Captain Mickey]

michaelsbagley you look awsome!

Found this..

"A cravatte is another kind of adornment for the neck being nothing else but a long towel put about the Collar, and so tyed before with a Bow Knott; this is the original of all such Wearings; but now by the Art and Inventions of the seamsters, there is so many new ways of making them, that it would be a task to name, much more to describe them." —Randle Holme, Academy of Armory and Blazon, 1688.

Is this true?

"Early cravats were made of the lace that was used so much in the period, but people soon grew to prefer the softer feel of a linen or muslin (sheer cotton fabric) cravat. They developed intricate ways to fold and knot their cravats. A new style of wearing the cravat was invented in 1692 by French soldiers fighting in the Battle of Steinkirk. Too rushed to tie their cravats in an intricate knot, they simply twisted the ends of the cloth and stuck it through a buttonhole in their waistcoat or justaucorps. This style became known as the steinkirk cravat."

I also found this:

...the Steinkerk (named after the Battle of Steenkerque in 1692). Before, the cravat was always worn flowing down the chest; the Steinkerk cravat looped through a buttonhole of the coat.

[MadL]

Oh, so one just goes around once then tie it off squarely, where the other goes around a few times but still ties off squarely.

So it be how much material and type of same what makes th' knot appear more fancy then other ones?

[michaelsbagley]

Oh, so one just goes around once then tie it off squarely, where the other goes around a few times but still ties off squarely.

So it be how much material and type of same what makes th' knot appear more fancy then other ones?

It's hard to tell, and this is why I always drop "persona talk" when in Twill talking about technical thing...

But I think what you are trying to say is correct. The Kercheif is generally a thin material, but the steinkirks and cravats are usually MUCH thinner which makes for a much smaller knot and extra fabric left over for fancy bows or to twist into a steinkirk through a button hole.

That's the best explanation I can come up with.

[MadL]

drop th' persona talk?? I will have you know that I have lived on th' beaches o' Southern California (surf's up dude!), th' mid-west, th' south east shore, Germany (once known as th' Holy Roman Empire); I have been told more then once that someone listen' to me could not figure out just where I am from....'n now with two daughters in their twenties (they speak a whole nother language all t'gether!) sometimes I can not understand m'self!!

Anyway *drop'n th' piratical accents* perhaps it is the 'steinkirk' and 'fancy bows' that I am seeing and not understanding. I see the once or twice around the neck and simple square not ties, but then there are the ones that make the big fancy ruffle look; like there may be something more then just a simple square knot evolved or is it the cut of the material?

Like I said above, a basic "rabbit runs around the tree and goes down the hole" tie had me so baffled that I chose to just never untie the demo knot me drill Sargent tied for me in Basic Training so I would never have to figure out how he did it and that tie (military uniform) still hangs tied in me/my closet!

So, is there any pictures/tutorials with step-by-steps for making the neck wrapping other then the simple square knot ties?