Curiosity over sashes

[LadyBarbossa]

Now.. looking more and more at some of these images and some of them supposedly templates (maybe) of attire from the era.

I saw sashes on Gentlemen that were just barely around the hips, almost like some fancy loin cloth style it seemed. Loose fitting around the hips.

Now.. how th' devil do they stay on? Surely they are not sewn to the outfit? Are they?

Just trying to gain a better understanding of the attire from what images I've seen.

~Lady B

[Dutchman]

pictures or a link!!!! I'm not following what you are describing

[LadyBarbossa]

Perhaps one of the best visual images I've seen is the one Gent on the far right in the pink and blue with the white sash:

I've seen some sashes that are around the waist and some around the hips. This I've seen on a couple other images like this where the sash hangs low and appears loosely wrapped.

~Lady B

[Dutchman]

to heck with the sash. look closely at the feet- RED HEELS!!!!! must have just come from court.

looking at him- its hard to tell with his hand over the knot whats going on. but the positioning is a good indicator. his right arm is almost straight compared to the left. held similarly, this places my right hand even with the ball of my femur and my left on my pelvic bone. if i am wearing one, by the end of the day- this is about where my sash ends up. of the four gents he is the only one not carrying a sword- i wonder whats going on?

the gent on the far left with his back to us. what is up with the sash over the shoulder?

on both, the sash is not a streaming pennant flapping in the breeze but tucked in and the ends are short- rather practical that way

Lady B- i have not run across this plate yet. where did you find it and thankyou for sharing.

[LadyBarbossa]

I don't know exactly where it was from. I think it may have been from one of the bilges of Costumes.org

I know I've found a good many decent images there.

Some I try and look for from museums. I know I have a good selection of picture of shoes that are actually from the era.

Yes! I did gawk at the red heeled shoes... and noticed how nicely white the shoes were.

The whole manner of that outfit is very interesting (that pink and blue one). Notice the breeches/pantaloons... the hat... etc..

Yes, I've noticed in a good many images either from the era or not... the cloth balcrics or whatever you want to call them. A variety of sizes and shapes it seems.

I love googling. :)

I'm still a bit leary of some images I find. They look decent to period but... some look more Victorian than they do actually from the period.

I'm presuming this is a copy template cause honestly, would ye really see such vivid colors like this back in the day if it wasn't a painting?

~Lady B

[michaelsbagley]

Not that I am any sort of expert on the matter....

But I would say that image is OF the 1680s or 1690s... The style of the Justacorps depicted in it has a very early period feel to them. That said, to me (and my opinion is based on nothing here), but to me that image looks like a pretty good modern (late 20th early 21st century) depiction of the period. But I admit I could be wrong here...

But if my memory serves me well, I have plenty of period images (particularly early French, 1680s/1690s) where men are depicted wearing sashes. Judging from THAT image (the dude in the pink and blue), it looks like it is loosely tied (not knotted), similarly to how I tie my scarves in the winter. I'm not sure I know how to explain how to get a sash or scarf tied like that... Maybe if I can find a scarf I can take some pictures later and see if that helps.

As for the sash over the dude with his back to the "auidience"... I've seen plenty of images with baldrics similar to that, but none quite so wide... I wonder if the artist is exagerating the baldric for some reason.

I imagine finding some specifics on the provenance of the image would probably give the most information on how (and if) any parts of the image could and should be interpretted....

[LadyBarbossa]

Aye... the French were good at having tons of templates. I guess we can thank them for that.

:::Shrugs::: Tis a good question, Michael. The outfits and the shape of the people do indeed look period from actual templates. But it was the use of color and shading that kinda has me doubting it's authenticity of actual period template.

Again, I find an image... I go to some of the museum images online. Spotted another image (B&W mind you) of an actual justacorp with a wig! A surviving piece! It's wicked! I'll try and put it up here soon.

Aye, plenty of sash images out there that gents wear. I'm just bewildered how in the devil a sash that's loosely tied can stay on! If I don't knot mine at my waist... forget it! It's at my ankles soon enough!

And yes, the baldric is wide. Rather wicked, too. I'm wondering it's they made it wide cause the edging is actually fringing. :::Shrugs:::

Never thought about a fabric shoulder sash to be tucked UNDER the waist sash though. Interesting.

Ok.. here is that surviving piece... isn't it just beautiful?!?

Look at the massive buttons! And the vertical flap... interesting.

~Lady B

[MadL]

I would say, and I am NO expert, there is a very slight over exaggeration on th' part o' th' artist, I say for look'n at th' size o' that fury muff one has, I mean like com'on!

As fer th' guy on th' far left, that o'er he's shoulder is certainly a baldric for just look at the sword what hangs off he's left hip.

Now fer th' two sashes, one on the far right and th' thirdly from th' right, they may well be tack'd t' th' frock in either th' back 'er I would say more likely off center t' th' left. They certainly would ha'e t' be tack sewn on t' keep them from fall'n they would. But th' one on th' far left, does not look from th' rear t' indicate that it too is 'loose' in th' front, I would bet that if'n ye toss'd a rock 'n beam'd he'm in th' head he would turn round t' reveal that he's sash is pull'd tight it is...but that just what I think.

I want that frock in th' photo - who do I ha'e t' kill t' acquire it?

[Capt. Sterling]

Perhaps one of the best visual images I've seen is the one Gent on the far right in the pink and blue with the white sash:

Right then, this is a print from Auguste Racinet's Full Color Pictorial History of Western Costume. A Dover Publication.

Albert-Charles-Auguste Racinet was a 19th century painter. Many are copies of original artwork from the time period.

As to the sashes being tied in such a fashion and actually staying put... not sure. Mine always rides up ... I can wear it rather loose if I wish but then I have to keep tugging up my breeches...

[Capt. Sterling]

Here you go, an original fashion plate from the period... look familiar?

[Capt. Sterling]

Look at the massive buttons! And the vertical flap... interesting.

~Lady B

Vertical pockets were pretty popular for the earlier coats

[Matusalem]

French privateer René Duguay-Trouin (1673-1736) served 1690 - 1736

[Dutchman]

dear me. i feel that our french privateer would certainly drown with all that on.

to the vertical pockets. i have not seen them before. can someone explain how they work and not spill the contents?

[Capt. Sterling]

Buttons

[MadL]

Buttons?!!??

Them sneak'n, devious, beguiling, guileful, unscrupulous pirates!!!!

'n I suppose they may e'en ha'e an interior lining that tilt downward for t' keep small item in as well they might?!!

[Capt. Sterling]

to the vertical pockets. i have not seen them before. can someone explain how they work and not spill the contents?

Remind me to bring the black and silver coat for the ball at Beaufort... easier to see up close.

[Dutchman]

ok ok i walked into that one. what are the advantages or is it purely a style thing.

[LadyBarbossa]

Slowly working on a prototype sash shoulder baldric or whatever those devils are called (yes, horrible at the terms at times). Slowly constructing one.

Neat images, Sterling. I think I've seen a couple of them around. Most I've seen have been B&W images.

Otherwise, only other colored images were the actual paintings.

Aye... as to the sash riding up. True. Sucks.

I'm a portly lass and my sash I wore on Friday night just curled up instead and kinda disappeared into the folds of the outfit. Sad.

Hmmm... I somewhat like the verticle pockets. They make for lovely decoration on the outfit though.

~Lady B

[Capt. Sterling]

ok ok i walked into that one. what are the advantages or is it purely a style thing.

As to advantages...can't say there are any or that I have read that there were considerations regarding such. As long as they are buttoned I haven't had any problems with them... although when they aren't...sheesh....

could just have been a style pure and simple.... remember coats are a fairly "new" clothing item so it may have just been fashion experimentation.

[Mission]

Interesting. As there is a discussion going on over in the Sewing Room about belts and suspenders, I was wondering if sashes would be used to hold up breeches. It would appear that they are just a fashion accessory, however. I also note that none of these photos are of common seamen, which is what most pirates would be. Sure, pirates may have stolen sashes from passengers on ships they took, but would they wear such a thing when it served no purpose and would likely get in the way of performing regular ship's duties? (Not to mention battle.)

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm mine doesn't help holding my breeches up, the gusset and a sword carriage are the only things that keep my breeches in place, that and too much food at Christmas...

as to getting in the way of fighting, mine doesn't but I wear mine short, like ye see in many of the period illustrations...not these long, wrap around yer ankle Jack Sparrow things... damn, would hate to be up in the rigging with one of those flapping in the breeze, not that my character would be up in the rigging often any way unless by choice..... the skirts of the frock coat get more in the way than anything else...and the large cuffs, which will catch on just about anything... and the wig on a very windy day.... I guess I could go on and on from experience.... but not my sash...

Also a fashion item but also donates rank as well...

also giving the thread a quick once over, doesn't actually look like it was aimed at the sailor/pirate type

Edited January 30, 2012 by Capt. Sterling

[Capt. Sterling]

make that denotes

yeah t'is Monday

Edited January 30, 2012 by Capt. Sterling

[jendobyns]

One thing to consider regarding the sash and how tightly it's knotted and where it sits. Slipping could be partially a factor of what type of fiber make up the sash and the coat. Some fabrics stick to one another (think about your scarf and winter coat or sweater). Depending on the finish of the fabric as well, these sashes might not be so slippery when rubbing up against the coat. The sashes on the extreme right and left of the pictures also look to be twisted slightly before being tied, which could also be a factor. These gentlemen may also have walked quite differently than we do, more toe-heel than heel-toe (think barefoot running technique), which would make their gait less bouncy, so the sash may slip less while walking, too. (The benefit of having dancing/fencing masters as fits their social status. )

[Capt. Sterling]

Ah... they just get stuck on all the damn buttons....

Ah... they just get stuck on all the damn buttons....

[Korisios]

Vertical pockets were pretty popular for the earlier coats

Could you tell us more about this picture? Periods and such?