Tall Ships

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I have started crewing on TallShips in my area, but no one is singing shanties. I'm looking for some really great shanties for the halyards, braces, and anchor so any or all ideas are welcomed.

[the Royaliste]

To directly address your question, you can beat the book 'Shanties from the Seven Seas' by Stan Hugill...We used to sing a half a dozen regularly when we carried trainees..I've basically ceased to do that, and my regular crew would rather listen to the Allman Brothers between ports!..So way, haul away, we'll haul away, Joe....

[hurricane]

To directly address your question, you can beat the book 'Shanties from the Seven Seas' by Stan Hugill...We used to sing a half a dozen regularly when we carried trainees..I've basically ceased to do that, and my regular crew would rather listen to the Allman Brothers between ports!..So way, haul away, we'll haul away, Joe....

I'd have to side with your crew on that one. Shanties are fine for the tourists... but I'd have to throw anyone overboard who burst into South Australia at sea...

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

We use them on the Nykel when raising the masts. Helps hauling the lines easier. Most other things we simply use "2 6 heave". Since the Nykel is also a tourist/educational attraction it also pleases the passangers especially on a Pirate Sail.

[Black Nate]

That begs a question. . . .

Why '2, 6, Heave'?

Why not 1, 2, Heave?

And, how many shantys are actually 1700s correct?

[Dutchman]

we use chanties while woring on the boats and keeping time at the oars. somewhere there is a video of us onboard the nykel holy stoning to haul away joe. silkie, it was at harborfest last year. maybe you can unearth it.

of course there is a time for everything. unfortunately hefting a dead two ton engine into the back of a truck is not the time for an unnamed certain crew member to insist on "ok folks- do it correctly. its layhold- heave" could have throttled him.

mostly we do it for show though.

[Desert Pyrate]

Shanties aren't a *whole* lot of good on most traditional ships sailing around these days. Most sail training vessels carry a large (for the period) crew on a ship that's not all that large, historically speaking.

The shanties are most useful for the larger vessels with small crews, as the loads per person are heavier and require greater coordination. Below a couple hundred tons (the vast majority of working sail vessels today), the hauls just aren't large and long enough to require an actual shanty.

That said, there are a couple exceptions. The largest hauls aboard a ship are the halyards and the anchor. Frequently, the anchor pull is too irregular to really lend itself to a shanty aboard the newer ships (and they don't anchor that much anyway). Halyards might lend themselves to singing, but again, they're frequently pretty short.

Busting a sail up onto a yard is a task in which some "shanties" might be used (and in fact, *are* used in the modern sail training fleet), but you'd be hard pressed to identify them as songs most of the time. Busting songs are very short, and usually involve some yelling (Dan Dan's an example, though not the atrocious version on the Rogues Gallery CD).

As for shanties being in period for the 18th century, they were just starting to come around at the end of the century, so far as I can tell. Again, before that, the ships just weren't large enough. One 18th century example is "Spanish Ladies," which, among other things is an example of a navigation song. The lines give sailing directions, a useful sort of rhyme when charts might not be available to every craft.

Dating songs is difficult, but many give Spanish Ladies a date somewhere in the 1780s. I've rarely seen any claims that a shanty is older than that, though there's a shortage of scholarship thereabout.

To sum it all up: shanties are a nineteenth century response to increased workloads aboard sailing vessels. The eighteenth century certainly would have had sea *songs*, but they probably weren't working shanties.

About 2-6 Heave: I'm unconvinced of its historical veracity. Many say that it's a naval gun crew command, but I've never seen any actual documentation supporting the statement that it's even as old as the eighteenth century. If anyone has any, I'd love to see it.

As for "why not 1,2, heave?"... absolutely no reason at all. There's no reason for 2-6 heave above 1-2-3, "pull-it-now", or anything else giving a rhythm.

Hope this was helpful.

[Silkie McDonough]

I've yet to research the "2-6 heave" but I recall hearing that it is indeed something to do with gun crews. the 2 position would have to do something then the 6 then those tending the lines would heave her back into position. I'm not much for research but I will see what I can find.

Aye ...I forgot about raising the halyard but that too would require much if not all of the crew. I have heard that there have been times that the Nykel has sailed with as few as 4 but I do not know what trip they were taking. Shanties are alos used to haul in the anchors and as I mentioned before to raise the topmast (about 3 times a year).

As to finding that footage of you holy stoning ...I will see what I can do ...just keep reminding me ...I can be rather forgetful at times.

Finally, I find that people like to leave the singing to people with pleasing voices and unless there is a strong voice on board to lead the shanty it doesn't happen.

[Dorian Lasseter]

That begs a question. . . .

Why '2, 6, Heave'?

Why not 1, 2, Heave?

Here's one possibility, I just did a quick search...

2-6 Heave! comes from each member of the old cannon crews on sailing ships having a number, 2 and 6 being the ones whose assignment it was to haul the gun back into position. Thus, "2,6,Heave" became the universal order to heave on something in unison, since everybody knew what it meant...

Further info says that it's right...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/...,-26509,00.html

Slainte!

[Desert Pyrate]

Yeah, I saw that Guardian thing.

I'm talking about real, honest, historical evidence. Primary sources.

There are plenty of "common knowledge" items that aren't so accurate...

[Dutchman]

ive got an e mail out to one of our jamestowne folks who is one of the musicians out there. he should be able to provide a few titles. don't expect to hear from him till monday or so though.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Yeah, I saw that Guardian thing.

I'm talking about real, honest, historical evidence. Primary sources.

There are plenty of "common knowledge" items that aren't so accurate...

As I said, I did a really quick 'net search...

I'd like to find/have good proper sources too...

[Dutchman]

ok, for what its worth since he did not send documentation with it. haul on the bowline is early 18th c. and lowland seas is Drake period. sorry not more specific, but thats from a jamestown curator - admittedly without documentation - and would be more credible than most. he's going to go digging and see if he can find some more next week.

[Black Nate]

Thanks Dorian and Dutchman.

It does actually make sense if it came from gun crews, calling the number positions out and giving a command.

Cheers!

[Desert Pyrate]

It makes sense... I'm just not sure it's *true*.

Some more exploration thereabout would be worthwhile, I just don't have time to do it for the next few months.