the food sailors ate

[Lady Seahawke]

OH the food timeline link listed above provides recipes and cooking methods for all different eras.

some of them relates as it would have been aboard a ship. But. lots of additional links from that one site.

Again, hope this helps....ok I love research and took the challenge up when I saw someone say they didn't think they could get the information via online. Besides with everything happening here I could use a distraction. smile thanks for providing that for me.

Anyway, I have found you can find most anything online from legit academic sources, ya just have to play with the words being googled.

[Matty Bottles]

Maybe I read to fast, but I didn't see fish on the menu.

I think these are mostly lists of stores. If fish is being caught from the ship, it wouldn't necessarily be listed in the stores.

[Matusalem]

I think these are mostly lists of stores. If fish is being caught from the ship, it wouldn't necessarily be listed in the stores.

That being said, what would have been the method of procuring fish?

Nets?

bamboo pole with a line attached, and a whalebone hook?

or just shewt the bloody thing with a pistol and wait till it floats, then net it up?

[Dutchman]

oddly enough in my lack of sleep enduced state of blurr last night i thought about fishing onboard. odd... anyhow-

while fishing gear of some sort would be on board (earlier in a differnt thread i mentioned a 1700's ancestors inventory aboard ship after his death- a few of the items sold off to the crew was a set of cod lines and nets- no descriptions of the nets) , i don't think it would be an every day occurance for pirates or ships of the line. at the speed some of these ships were travelling at a successfull hook would be rare. as there were no modern reels, they did have a hand winder like a kite string, getting your fish on board via hook would be a bit challenging- you would rip it to pieces in the water then beat it to heck going up the side of a ship the size of the constitution, rember curve of the hull and the tar. I really don't think many captains would allow a line over the quarter deck either *escuse me cap'n, got a fish* so a pound or gill net would be needed to practically do it. nets take time and the ship would have to slow down to do it- not impossible, but not likely if there were stores aboard. besides it would take a lot of fish on a hand line to feed a large crew and if you were under way,crew would not have time on watch to tend a hand line. now if you were in the doldrums listening to the rigging slat back and forth.......

this is just my practical approach and observations growing up around commercial fisheries on the cheaspeake. i will gladly deffer to anyone with documentation or other ideas.

[Matusalem]

this is just my practical approach and observations growing up around commercial fisheries on the cheaspeake

bbcdutchman, you just gave me an idea.....what about something similar to crab pots? I wouldn't expect 17th/18th century people to construct a 3' by 3' by 3' trap out of chicken wire, but something of wood seems feasible. ...tho you'd have to tend to them or people would steal your catch.

[Misson]

I know fish were caught off Newfoundland and salted for use in Great Britain and (if I am remembering it correctly) for the BRN warships. Surgeon James Yonge spent at least two summers in Newfoundland while the fishing was going on to earn money as a sort of traveling fishing camp surgeon in what he refers to as a sort of slow season for him. Part of his pay was in fish that he could sell. He describes this all in his Journal. The copy I have is edited by F.N.L. Poynter, The Journal of James Yonge [1647-1721] Plymouth Surgeon printed by Longman’s, Green & Company of Great Britain in 1965.

[Dutchman]

ok cheaspeake fisheries were easy.

oysters were plentiful and grew on darned near anything. john smith describes them as being as large as a plate. (don't know what size plate though). natives would pile the empty shells and make a reef for them to grow on. gee- like what scientists are doing now to research the growth, duh...... anyhow different tangent.

crabs were run into wooden cages in about four or five feet of water. a net was made going from shore out a couple hundred feet to these wooden boxes that had a funnel, if you will, on its side at the end. unable to go under it, the crabs would travel the length of the net and end up in this box of no escape. fishermen row/ paddle up and dip them out with a basket or net. i remember seeing modern versions of this growing up, but have not seen one in the better part of twenty years. i'm sure its still done- just not here anymore.

the little place i'm from is named after john smiths attempt to spear a stingray with his sword. he describes them as schools of hundreds. smith was later reported to have eaten said stingray after he was nursed back to health.

the only thing i'm hung up on is the fishing itself. hooks would not be practical for mass fishing, but i'm not sure on the nets. i'm working on it.

[Misson]

while fishing gear of some sort would be on board (earlier in a differnt thread i mentioned a 1700's ancestors inventory aboard ship after his death- a few of the items sold off to the crew  was a set of cod lines and nets- no descriptions of the nets) , i don't think it would be an every day occurance for pirates or ships of the line. at the speed some of these ships were travelling at a successfull hook would be rare. as there were no modern reels, they did have a hand winder like a kite string, getting your fish on board via hook would be a bit challenging- you would rip it to pieces in the water then beat it to heck going up the side of a ship the size of the constitution, rember curve of the hull and the tar. I really don't think many captains would allow a line over the quarter deck either *escuse me cap'n, got a fish* so a pound or gill net would be needed to practically do it. nets take time and the ship would have to slow down to do it- not impossible, but not likely if there were stores aboard.

I think you're probably right. Here is something from Woodes Roger's journal of the privateering voyage of the ships Duke and Dutchess, which began in 1708:

"This morning our Men went in our Boat to hall our Fishing-Net, and caught some very good Fifh much better than those in St. Vincent." (Rogers, A Cruising Voyage Around the World, 1712, p. 27)

The fact that he recorded it makes the event seem somewhat exceptional. Combined with the fact that some days he only records the weather and wind direction, it suggests [but certainly doesn't prove] that fishing was not a regular thing for the crew to be doing - at least not on that voyage. (And they would have had plenty of reason to procure food as the voyage was expected to take several years.)

[Lady Alyx]

this was a good read for me...

to be a pirate

now I know what Hard Tack is.

[Dutchman]

thanks to all who helped find links to the last question.

now on to the next food related item. how to prepare it. i've been diddling around with different ways. based on the lists compiled it takes lots of water to rehydrate this stuff. even longer if there is no heat- as in the ships a rockin and fire is not safe=cold victuals for jack tar.

on the other hand this could be used to prepare a meal as well. lets say set the next meal aside to soak while your eating the current one. this will allow a smaller and shorter fire time if you want it heated or to just finish hydrating it. so my thought for a SINGLE person, not a crew, would be to use something like a poridger (sp?) and a copper kettle? maybe some of our buckskinners can help out here.

by the way, softening time for 6 month old hard tack is around twenty minutes in cold water and i suggest you let it soften ALL THE WAY. if anyone else would like to try this experiment allow plenty of time for your body to adjust to the new diet and be ready for some uncomfortable positions on the bathroom floor waiting for things to *ahem* sort themselves out.

[Misson]

Here's some more from Roger's book on fishing:

"We heel'd the Dutchess both sides by us, we had a great deal of Wood cut, caught excellent Fish with our Lines, and had Several Canoe from the Town..." (Rogers, p. 27)

"The Fish we saw in the Road were Sharks, so well known that I need not describe them. 2. Pilot-Fishes, so call'd because they commonly attend the Sharks, find out their Prey for 'em, and are never devour'd by 'em. 3. The Sucking-Fish, so call'd because of a Sucker about two inches long on the top of their Heads, by the Slime of which they stick so fast to Sharks and other large Fish, that they are not easily pull'd off. 4. Parrot-Fish, So nam'd because their Mouths resemble the Beak of a Parrot. 5. A Rock-Fish, which is very good, and much like our Cod. 6. Silver-Fish in great plenty: 'tis a deep-body'd bright Fish, from 12 to 18 inches long, and very good Meat: But there are so many sorts of good Fish here, that we can't describe 'em all." (Rogers, p. 29-30)

You should check out the book Life at Sea in the Age of Sail by William Rayner Thrower, bcddutchman. While I think Thrower makes a common mistake in regard to past eras - saying something is true (and, in his case at times, adamantly so) for everyone based on one or two individual examples - it is still very interesting. He talks quite a bit about cooking fires and food in his book. I believe he even mentioned how biscuit was made palatable as you're suggesting. (In fact, that and your comments about the problem of fires while under way are what reminded me of his book.)

[Dutchman]

thanks mission. a new title for me. off to the library i go. heaven help me if i ever get a real job and don't have extra time. living history is proving to be interesting. as it is a hobby for most of us we can only relate what we read or first hand experience while we are doing. i'm reading, then trying to do so as to better present it. this food issue is quite a challenge. i broke down and ordered chinese the other night- enough was enough- but it did have beef and pease- er um peas.

as far as fishing gear- i have an appointment with a textile shop in yorktown after the festival and she is going to learn me how to weave a net out of hemp- but she says i need to make myself a pair of socks first as a beginners project. oh well.

[Lady Alyx]

hmmm I'd say skip the chinese..and have a nice meat pie hun...

[Misson]

Yet another interesting quote about fishing from Rogers book...

"Febr. 13 [1709] Yesterday in the Afternoon we sent our Yall a fishing, and got near 200 large Fish in a very little time, which we salter for our future landing." (Rogers, p. 78)

[Dutchman]

and various bits from tobacco coast (thanks sterling) the crew of india king, while waiting for favorable wind off the virginia capes fished with a large hook baited with four pounds of meat, eventually catching a 100 pound fish "which caused great joy and rejoysing" another one... the ship's company amused themselves by fishing for the many dolphins that played about the vessel. some fished with baited hooks: others used seven-foot harpoons with five hook-like points...... mrs. browne told of cooking a twenty inch flying fish caught at sea.....

[Misson]

"Sept. 14 [1709 - in the Galapagos]...Our Pinnace came aboard and brought about 18 Bushells of Salt, and 18 Land Turtle more [they regularly caught turtles on this voyage and ate them] ; the Men commend them for excellent Food especially the Land Turtle, which makes very good Broth, but the Flesh never boils tender; for my own part, I could eat neither sort yet...We caught a good quantity of Fish here, which was split and salted for our future Spending." (Rogers, p. 142)

"Octob. 19 [1709 - Tres S. Maria Islands]...We hal'd the Sain, and caught some fish." (Rogers, p. 147)

I wondered what 'the Sain' was and tried looking it up on-line. The term is apparently either out of use for the most part or the spelling is different, but it appears from the best reference I could find to be a net that several men pulled from the water onto the shore. I invite anyone who knows different to enlighten me.

Somewhere I also recall reading an account of their catching dolphin to eat, but I can't seem to find it now.

Sorry to keep on about fishing, but this question came up on another forum years ago and one of the posters kept trying to tell me that they never fished from pirate vessels which I thought was absurd. Common sense suggests they would fish if they could do so. (I should have known better - folks who bandy absolutes like 'never' about so carelessly in reference to something that happened so long ago should be viewed cautiously. This is what worries me about W.R. Thower's books, although I like his info, some of which I have not found elsewhere.)

[Dutchman]

a seine net is a net now most often used as you describe it. however there is also a haul seine and a purse seine. The difference between a gill net and seine net, i believe, is the size mesh and its deployment style. I don't have time to look into this week, but will upon my return. man mission, i wish you were headed to blackbeard.

[Dutchman]

from a google search

Seine/Net

History

Archaeological evidence suggests that humans learned the art of fishing with nets (or seines, which are weighted nets that fold inward to enclose fish) very early in man’s history. Based on large prehistoric mounds of discarded mollusk shells, man’s first attempt at foraging meals from the water involved simply grabbing these creatures (such as clams) from the shallow waters of oceans, lakes, and rivers. However, as any small child standing ankle-deep in a stream can tell you, the reach-and-pluck method is not very effective in capturing more mobile aquatic creatures such as fish or shrimp. Thus, other techniques were developed, such as using nets.

At first nets were small and used exclusively in lakes and rivers, but a number of different factors spurred the development and range of net usage. One was the introduction of boats, which allowed man to venture further and further out into areas of the ocean that were rich with marine life. Another was the development of storage techniques that prevented the need to immediately consume caught fish, such as salting, smoking, drying, and fermentation. These advances, combined with the dietary needs of an expanding population, made it necessary and economically viable to catch fish in large numbers. Collective, large-scale fishing with nets was born.

Examples of the early use of nets for large-scale fishing abound in history. The Black Sea fisheries were an important part of the economies of both ancient Greek and Phoenician cultures, and by the Middle Ages herring was being caught in large numbers in northern Europe. The development of large-scale commercial fishing paralleled the development of industrial technology, with steam ships replacing sailing ships, only to be replaced with more and more powerful internal-combustion engine vessels. And at every stage the catch of these largely net-hauling ships increased dramatically, to the point that the current worldwide catch of fish averages more than 100 million tons per year.

Another major historical advancement in fishing with nets occurred after WWII when man-made fibers such as nylon and polyester began to replace older vegetable or animal fibers that were prone to rotting.

Types of Nets

Most people’s first (and perhaps only) experience with a fishing net is eagerly fumbling a dip net over the side of a boat to prevent the loss of a hooked bass, trout or crappie. But there are several other types of nets and seines employed in fishing throughout the world. The three basic categories of nets are:

1. Drift nets-These sometimes long (up to 40 miles in length) nets can either drift freely or remain attached to a fishing craft. They are set in the water vertically with floating devices suspending the top and weights holding down the bottom. Often dropped into the water after sunset (so the fish cannot see its presence), they remain drifting all night. Fish become entangled in the net as they try to swim though it, either by a section of twine slipping under their gill cover (in what are called gill nets) or by becoming trapped in pockets between multiple layers of meshing. The nets are then hauled up, either by hand or by hydraulic engines, and the entangled fish are removed from the nets. These types of nets are commonly used to catch salmon, herrings, flatfish, sturgeon, and different shellfish, such as king crabs.

2. Surrounding nets-These nets do just what their name implies, they encircle or surround the fish so that it cannot escape. There are two main varieties of surrounding nets, the seine and the trawl, with two subgroups of seines, the beach (or drag) and the purse. The beach seines are used right off shore with the fish hauled right up onto the beach. The purse seines are operated from boats in deep waters, usually with one end of the net towed around the school of fish while the other end remains fastened to the main vessel. They have a steel cable that runs through rings at the bottom that is pulled upwards, preventing fish from escaping by diving downwards. They are used primarily for fish that school near the surface and can operate from a single boat or by two vessels. Fish that are commonly caught with purse seines are sardines, cod, mackerel, salmon, tuna, and herring, and more fish are caught worldwide with purse seines than any other method. Trawls are another form of surrounding net that are quite effective in catching large numbers of fish. Pulled behind specialized boats called trawlers, they are large, funnel-shaped nets that trap fish in the rear of their netting. It is attached to the boat by two long cables and near the net’s opening are two boards (called otter boards) that are forced downward and sideways by the force of the water to hold open the net. The older models of trawlers launched and recovered the net from the side of the vessel but most modern trawlers launch it from the stern (back). Trawls can be placed at many different depths, from scraping along the seabed to just below the surface, and catch many species of fish and shrimp. They are second to only the purse seine in total catch world-wide.

3. Trap nets-Trap nets are stationary nets that are staked at the bottom of bodies of water. Usually cylindrical in shape, they form a labyrinth-like series of chambers that are easy for aquatic life to enter (through funnels) but from which they cannot escape. The catch can then be emptied out by pulling the drawstring that opens the tail of the net. This type of net is popular for catching catfish, salmon, trout, and eels.

Other Methods

Besides the methods listed above, there are a number of other interesting methods for catching fish with nets.

1. The lift method-This method employs nets with a square metal frame around the four sides with four lift lines running from the frame’s corners to a central point known as the lift rope. The lift net is set into the water and either bait is thrown in the water above it or light is used to attract fish or crustaceans. When the prey swims over it the lift net is pulled up out of the water with the prey inside of it. These nets are great for catching bait such as minnows. This method can also be employed on a grand scale by large, mechanically operated lift nets off of beaches or vessels.

2. Recovery nets-Recovery nets are long, rectangular nets primarily used to collect fish at hydroelectric dams for mortality studies. The fish are collected in a live box at one end of the net.

3. Veranda nets-Waters where flying fish and shrimp gather are stirred up, then this specialized net is used to catch them in the air.

[LadyBarbossa]

Makes sense about the fish.

The list on the first page of food sounds much like a normal Quartermaster list of rations from the Continenal Army during the Rev War.

I know often there was a substitute since certain items were unobtainable.

I won't eat fish. Can't stand it. Crabs, lobster, calamari... but not fish. What about calamari? or seaweed? perhaps some other unfortunate critter that was spotted on some isle or stretch of land from a deer and a boar to some paradise bird or turtle. I believe there is documentation on turtles as one of those possible choices?

Obvious about the Buccaneers... the ones who poached and smoked.

Now... I'm curious how th' devil one could have eaten raw meat on a vessel? As not all vessels had some make shift galley, aye? How would one cook raw foods?

Course, some went without food for a while or very little of it until reaching a port and just going all out with their prize plunder and porking out on the local fare, aye?

~Lady B

[Lady Alyx]

if'n your hungry enough you would eat about anythin'

[Matusalem]

Lady Alyx wrote

if'n your hungry enough you would eat about anythin'

...including your own shoes. That's what the tour guide on the Mayflower told us 4th graders, about the pilgrim's voyage from the Netherlands/Southampton to Cape Cod. Hmm. I guess shoe leather doesn't sound so bad when you're hungry. ...at least it's edible.

[Misson]

Lady Alyx wrote

if'n your hungry enough you would eat about anythin'

...including your own shoes. That's what the tour guide on the Mayflower told us 4th graders, about the pilgrim's voyage from the Netherlands/Southampton to Cape Cod. Hmm. I guess shoe leather doesn't sound so bad when you're hungry. ...at least it's edible.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but to give a topical reference, pirate Henry Morgan's men were reduced to eating their leather shoes and satchels in their hike at Torno Caballos because they couldn't locate food like they expected to on their march. I don't have the exact reference to quote, but I know they gave us all a recipe to try out - first, cut the leather into small pieces, then boil it making a sort of soup. Then chew (and chew and chew) and swallow. Naturally, this recipe tastes like chicken.

I have a sort of interesting food reference from Dampier's New Voyage Around the World, first publisehd in 1697.

"We cruised among the Islands [near Boca-toro], and kept our Muskito-men [local Indians who Dampier says were excellent hunters], or Strikers out, who brought aboard some half-grown Tortoise; and some of us went ashore every day to hunt for what we could find in the Woods: Sometimes we got Pecary, Waree, or Deer; at other times we light on a drove of large fat Monkeys, or Quames, Corrosoes, (each a large sort of Fowl) Pigeons, Parrots, or Turtle-doves. We liv'd very well on what we got, not staying long in one place; but sometimes we would go on the Islands, where there grow great Groves of Sapadilloes, which is a sort of Fruit much like a Pear, but more juicy; and under those Trees we found plenty of Soldiers, a little kind of Animals that live in Shells, and have two great Claws like a Crab, and are good food. One time our Men found a great many large ones, and being sharp-set had them drest, but most of them were very sick afterwards, being poisoned by them: For on this Island were many Manchaneel Trees, whose Fruit is like a small Crab, and smells very well, but they are not wholesome; and we commonly take care of meddling with any Animals that eat them. And this we take for a general Rule; when we find any Fruits that we have not seen before, if we see them peck'd by Birds, we may freely eat, but if we see no such sign, we let them alone; for of this Fruit no birds will taste. Manyof these Islands have of these Manchaneel Trees growing on them." (Dampier, p. 36)

As an aside, these trees must have been a real issue, for they are mentioned in several related accounts.

From Lionel Wafer's book A New Voyage and Description of the Isthmus of America which is account of different parts of the same voyage,

“There is on the Islands, a Tree which is called Manchinel, and is Fruit the Manchinel Apple. ‘Tis in Smell and Colour like a lovely pleasant Apple, small and fragrant, but of a poisonous Nature; for if any eat of any Living Creature that has happen’d to feed on that Fruit, they are poisoned thereby, tho’ perhaps not mortally. The Trees grow in green Spots; they are low, with a large Body, spreading out and full of Leaves. I have heard that the Wood hath been us’d in fine carv’d or inlay’d Works; for it is delicately grain’d.. But there is danger in cutting it, the very Sap being so poisonous, as to blister the part which any of the Chips strike upon as they fly off. A French-man of our Company lying under one of these Trees, in one of the Samballoes, to refresh himself, the Rain-water trickling down thence on his Head and Brest, blistered him all over, as if he had been bestrewed with Cantharides. His Life was saved with much difficulty; and even when cured, there remained Scars, like those after the Small-Pox.” (Wafer, p.100-1)

In a footnote to the Dover edition of Wafer's book,

“In the History of the Bucaniers (London, Maltus, 1684), p. 181, it is said that, ‘the Tree called Mancanilla, or the Dwarf Apple, is found here, whose Fruit is of a most venomous quality, for being eaten by any Person, immediately he changeth colour, and is taken with such a thirst, that no water can quench, and within a little dies perfectly mad. Yea, if a Fish eat of it (as sometimes they do) it is poisonous.’ The sap of the manchineel is very injurious to the eyes, but otherwise not as dangerous, at least not to persons in good health, as the above would imply.” (Wafer, footnote, p. 101)

[Misson]

Dampier's not much on details of sea surgery, but he has lots to say about food! Here are a whole slew of interesting quotes. I'll start with my favorite:

"I saw a few Flamingo's, which is a sort of large Fowl, much like a Heron in shape, but bigger, and of a reddish Colour... They are very shy, therefore it is hard to shoot them... The Flesh of both young and old is lean and black, yet very good Meat, tasting neither fishy, nor any way unsavoury. Their Tongues are large, having a large Knob of Fat at the Root, which is an excellent Bit; a Dish of Flamingo's Tongues being fit for a Prince's Tables." (Dampier, 1683, p. 56-7)

"In our way thither (to Virginia) we took several of the Sucking-fishes; for when we see them about the Ship, we cast out a Line and Hook, and they will take it with any manner of Bait, whether Fish or Flesh. The Sucking-fish is about the bigness of a large Whiting, and much of the same make toward the Tail, but the Head is flatter... When any of them happen to come about a Ship, they seldom leave her, for they will feed on such filth as is daily thrown over-board, or on there Excrements." (Dampier, 1682, p. 53)

Yummy! And now, a recipe for shark:

"While we lay in the Calms we caught several great Sharks; sometimes two or three in a Day, and eat them all, boiling and squeezing them dry, and then stewing them with Vinegar, Pepper &c. for we had but little Flesh aboard." (Dampier, p. 62)

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Plum Duff was served on Sunday aboard ships, if a ship didn't it was called a Hell Ship.

[Dutchman]

lady b, unless it was to be used almost immediately, raw meat was not brought aboard. it was salted or dried first then added to.

on the fishing front my new friend norm from tangier is going to save his crab scrape and gill nets for me when he is done for the season. these are huge hand tied cotton nets. so mission- upon or next venture together i believe we shall go'a fishing-yes? i asked one of the tangiermen to work with me on my net and man can he fly for eighty something, but my net is coming along nicely.