Event Fees

[historyfanatic]

I travel to a lot of reenactments, but I don't go to very many pirate festivals/ren fairs. I know there are more differences than just the clothes. At most events there's an admission fee, no matter how you're dressed. If it's a camping event, there may be a camping fee and if you're selling there, you might have a vendor fee.

I run a pirate event and the state sponsorship has been, shall we say "borrowed" by our fine governor to put into roads. (How far is $1000 going to go to repairing roads? It would be put to better use paying for a pirate weekend!)

So what I want to know is:

What are the highest and lowest camp fees you pay and of what type?

For example:

As a vendor the highest vendor fee I pay is around $135 for a weekend. The lowest is $25. I am willing to pay a higher vendor fee if I know sales will be good. There are a few events where there is no vendor fee, but I usually have to demonstrate and besides, that doesn't apply to this question.

When just participating as a reenactor, there are few fees, but when I am asked to help support the event that I enjoy, the lowest tends to be around $5 and the highest around $25.

Is this pretty accurate? Do you folks feel that a low average along these lines is fair?

Finally, is it better to charge a small fee per person, or a larger fee per tent?

Just curious and looking for honest information. I hate to have to charge reenactors at all, but I'd hate it even more to see the event die because it can't be funded.

The majority of the funds will go to providing insurance for the event. This will allow all the programs and fun to go on unhindered by the State of Indiana. The rest will go to providing powder bounties for cannons, boats, etc, so in the end, a lot of people will be getting it back. Not to mention the event provides free ice, firewood, hot showers, etc. Not a dime from these fees will go in anyone's pocket with the exception of the fine reenactors and the filthy insurance companies...

Whaddaya think?

[LadyBarbossa]

Hmmm... tough to say, m'dear.

What events I've gone to with the NWTA all I have to do is show up. I'll bring food for my unit but not much else besides myself and my stuff. Gas was generally the only thing I really had to worry about.

:::Shrugs::: besides donations, tough call. Vendor charges I suppose would make sense to some extent. With the economy as it is, unpredictable how money will be spent. And if charging a portrayer to come to an event, that may or may not inhibit someone from attending. Charging the public is sometimes a wee bit harsh consideirng you WANT them to come. But asking for donations to bring the event back year after year and help support expenses doesn't hurt either.

What about grants?

Illinois has a Colonial Society group. Does Indiana? If so, can there be some support from them?

This is indeed an ouch aspect when it comes to money to fund an event, especially one that's not like a theme park but more a reenactment.

It's something that plagues all reenactments since this is a non-profit hobby.

~Lady B

[Rumba Rue]

It really depends on the event.

Out here in Calif. the cost of a booth can run as high as 400.00 for a two weekend event, about 200.00 or a tad less for one weekend.

Then there is the S. Calif. Ren-Pleasure Faire (the one that started it all) that has some of the strictest guidelines around, plus vendors are required to hire extra help which the vendor owners have to pay them....then there are the requirements of having to attend 'classes', pay for parking and/or camping fees plus who knows what else they charge the participants for and then that faire has the nerve to charge over $20.00 to get in for the general public.

I'm so glad I left that junk years ago. I use to go into the hole around $300.00 dollars every season I participated, just to have to pay for those extra costs.

Grants:

Only can be gotten if you belong to a true Non-Profit Organization, they do not support faires. Nor will they support any group that does not have a clear agenda on what they teach. Yes teach, that's the magic word.

The group I belong to, Pirates of Treasure Cove, is the ONLY group in the USA that promotes reading! Therefore once we get our true Non-Profit status - we have to submit bylaws and all kinds of stuff- we will be seeking a grant...

The biggest factor is having a faire is finding the right sponsors and you have to have some decent ones.

The most major expense is in advertising. It's very costly and if you don't get advertisements in newspapers and such, you won't get anyone to come.

I'm not sure I answered your questions the best, but I wrote what I know and what our group is currently going through.

[the Royaliste]

Ahoy, mate..we meet again on yet another forum!..Then there's my side of the event fees..even if it's an event where our not for profit doesn't receive a stipend, since my 'booth' can do some damage, the insurance premiums are usually for one million in coverage, with two events wanting 5 mil this year. The cost of the riders are between 500-1500 dollars..really rediculous!..

[historyfanatic]

Ahoy, mate..we meet again on yet another forum!..Then there's my side of the event fees..even if it's an event where our not for profit doesn't receive a stipend, since my 'booth' can do some damage, the insurance premiums are usually for one million in coverage, with two events wanting 5 mil this year. The cost of the riders are between 500-1500 dollars..really rediculous!..

Thanks brother...

I don't feel so bad anymore...

That's crazy!!!

[blackjohn]

That's Z-E-R-O.

Maybe even negative zero.

Me? as a reenactor, paying to go to an event... that's just crazy. If I wanted to pay to do an event, it would have to be a private event, by invitation only, with no public attending. At a typical event, reenactors are the draw, and if anyone has to pay, the public are the ones who pay to be entertained.

In a best case scenario, part of the proceeds go back to the reenactors.

Royaliste's case is special. I can only imagine the insurance nightmares associated with running a ship. My hat is off to anyone who is willing to wade through that bureaucracy in order to bring some happiness to the spectators.

[Capt. Sterling]

I must agree with Blackjohn. The only thing I pay for when attending an event is blackpowder, food and gas... and sometimes I haven't even paid for that, as it is sometimes provided as an incentive to get reenactors to come.

In thirty-five years of attending reenactments, I have been paid to participate, but not always, especially when bringing 23 horses, but never had to pay...

Not only ask the public to pay, but go to your local Chamber of Commerce, historical societies, large businesses that need a write off... etc.

Even if you charge five dollars a head and let kids in for free to start, you are sending the message that the event will be worth their time and money, it seems to bring in more public.

[historyfanatic]

Problem is that the state charges the public to come into the park, so they won't allow me to charge them again. Besides, the logistics of funnelling the public through another gate just wouldn't work.

This is going to take some serious pondering because without funding, we can't get the insurance policy that we are required to have. (Insurance is the killer...) I'm pouring money into this thing out of my own pocket to make it happen this year. We're looking for sponsors, but it's late in the game for that. Better luck for next year. We're giving away a doglock blunderbuss in a raffle (donated by me) along with other prizes (donated by me) and we're having a silent auction at the event with goods donated by me and friends of the event.

I thought that maybe the reenactors (many of whom herald this event as the most fun they've ever had at any event) would be willing to kick in a bit to keep it running. Especially since they get a lot of amenities that other events don't offer like restrooms with running water, hot showers, free ice, firewood, etc. We don't have to pay for these items, they are donated by the state, but the insurance is what's a big killer. The other expenses on the list are paying reenactors to bring cannons, paying reenactors to bring boats, paying reenactors for entertainment, etc... See a pattern here? With the exception of the insurance and possibly a few advertising dollars (the state helps us with local advertising) everything is going back into the reenactors.

I guess I'll have to keep thinking...

[Capt. Sterling]

The other expenses on the list are paying reenactors to bring cannons, paying reenactors to bring boats, paying reenactors for entertainment, etc... See a pattern here?

Aye I see an interesting pattern here...but I am sure I am mistaken, so please clarify... some reenactors are asked to pay in order that certain other reenactors are able to be paid? I must be reading this incorrectly....

Ask them to donate their time in order to cover the insurance expenses.

[Silkie McDonough]

What about donations by others who like to attend?

Would any that attend wish to make "charitableness contributions?"

What of things like games for kids? ...just brainstorming here.

There are things that you could sell but that would require an initial output of money ...which is coming from your pockets already.

[historyfanatic]

The other expenses on the list are paying reenactors to bring cannons, paying reenactors to bring boats, paying reenactors for entertainment, etc... See a pattern here?

Aye I see an interesting pattern here...but I am sure I am mistaken, so please clarify... some reenactors are asked to pay in order that certain other reenactors are able to be paid? I must be reading this incorrectly....

Ask them to donate their time in order to cover the insurance expenses.

Ok, let me point out that we have not paid anyone to date for their services with the exception of giving powder to the cannons.

On the other hand, we have heard rumblings that some people would like traveling expenses paid for large boats and large cannons. (I understand this as I have one of each. I don't mind paying expenses out of pocket though because it's fun, but I do understand those who have to travel long distances.) I have also been informed that a simple "fuel expense" allowance would bring in at least three other large boats and 5 more cannons. It's very tempting...

Furthermore, the entertainment doesn't bring any money into the event. It just attracts the attention of the public, which keeps the site happy and allows us to continue playing on the water every year.

It's a sad thing, but the state wants to make money off of gate admissions, but they don't want to have to lift a finger or spend any money to do so. I just want to put on a good pirate event and after jumping through all the hoops the only thing i've accomplished is I've made myself tired.

And FYI, I was talking about the reenactors paying $5-$10 for the weekend. That's not unreasonable considering you get free firewood and ice and the DNR campground next door charges $20 per night.

Also, that "camp fee" would be waived for anyone who wanted to put on a show of some sort. (i.e. swordfights, hangings, etc. Archangel would never have to pay because they're too involved!) I just figure that if someone's going to sit on the beach and drink rum all day, the least they can do is help support the party that I'm putting on for them out of my pocket...

[willie wobble]

you supplying the RUM too ?

[Capt. Sterling]

.

Ok, let me point out that we have not paid anyone to date for their services with the exception of giving powder to the cannons.

On the other hand, we have heard rumblings that some people would like traveling expenses paid for large boats and large cannons. (I understand this as I have one of each. I don't mind paying expenses out of pocket though because it's fun, but I do understand those who have to travel long distances.) I have also been informed that a simple "fuel expense" allowance would bring in at least three other large boats and 5 more cannons. It's very tempting...

Furthermore, the entertainment doesn't bring any money into the event. It just attracts the attention of the public, which keeps the site happy and allows us to continue playing on the water every year.

It's a sad thing, but the state wants to make money off of gate admissions, but they don't want to have to lift a finger or spend any money to do so. I just want to put on a good pirate event and after jumping through all the hoops the only thing i've accomplished is I've made myself tired.

And FYI, I was talking about the reenactors paying $5-$10 for the weekend. That's not unreasonable considering you get free firewood and ice and the DNR campground next door charges $20 per night.

Also, that "camp fee" would be waived for anyone who wanted to put on a show of some sort. (i.e. swordfights, hangings, etc. Archangel would never have to pay because they're too involved!) I just figure that if someone's going to sit on the beach and drink rum all day, the least they can do is help support the party that I'm putting on for them out of my pocket...

This is a new event and needs to get on its feet... I see nothing wrong with asking the participants to donate their time until the event is solidly up and running. In most cases they will be there... unless they just don't have the monies to get them to and fro bounty or not... perhaps you may lose a gun or a boat or two, but if it helps to get the event on more solid footing, it can be made up in the long run....Dang, we have been to plenty of events without any cannon or boats and had great events. When the event starts making money, then you offer bounties and payment...

I can also understand folks grumbling due to gas prices this year... why last year it cost me over $600 in gas alone just to get to Paynetown myself....the rest of the crew was most likely in the 200-400 dollar range. If the pump prices keep climbing, I may be in the 800-1000 dollar range, just to attend...So in a way maybe you can now understand my concern at adding an extra $20 bucks to my price tab, or in my case 60 due to including the two snotties. We still have to cover food expenses as well..

BUT to charge the average joe who comes dressed to the event just to hang out and NOT participate makes sense... the question is how do you control them unless you nail them at the gate when they arrive as they are not attached to any of the crewes that do work, especially when you are not allowed to charge a second time?

I am just sorry to hear that the park itself, is not willing to support the event enough to truly make it work. It would be easy for them to charge a fee at the gate and hand stamp folks to show that they can enter the encampment...once they paid at the main gate, at least there would be some compensation and you wouldn't really have to police the camp too much, although you certainly could.

Perhaps tis time to look for another location for next year? Sure the place is nice, but if you are killing yerself to play there... something is wrong.... Also, perhaps twas just the route I took in, but the drive there was pretty isolated and I saw nothing advertising the event to the public... is there enough public even around to help cover the costs? Or are you going to all this hard work to put on an exclusive for the folks at the park beach?

Have you spoken to the park about having the event fall under their insurance coverage? Perhaps for a smaller fee, rather then getting a full fledged policy for one weekend, you could get them to obtain an extension/umbrella to their already existing policy to cover the event...

[Matty Bottles]

you supplying the RUM too ?

What events are you going to - I always pay for drinks. Well, I mean my friends pay for drinks, and then I drink theirs. I get the feeling this will catch up with me this summer as I type this...

Seriously, though, I have attended this event, and it is a lot of fun. And it's a young event - these sort of growing pains are bound to happen. Now, if Nathan can find reasonable solutions to the fund-raising, then an event with three other large boats and five more cannon would be a blast - and maybe, just maybe, other performance crewes could get a travel stipend (or something like that) too. That's just an idea - I don't want to put words in Nathan's mouth. But I do know that there is no chance of anythinf like that if there is no event - and there is a good chance of no event if there's no insurance.

[Matty Bottles]

Have you spoken to the park about having the event fall under their insurance coverage? Perhaps for a smaller fee, rather then getting a full fledged policy for one weekend, you could get them to obtain an extension/umbrella to their already existing policy to cover the event...

This is an excellent idea, and well worth investigating.

[historyfanatic]

Have you spoken to the park about having the event fall under their insurance coverage?  Perhaps for a smaller fee, rather then getting a full fledged policy for one weekend, you could get them to obtain an extension/umbrella to their already existing policy to cover the event...

This is an excellent idea, and well worth investigating.

Been done did look'ded into!

I asked the state about this idea a few months ago and they informed me that they don't want to be liable for anything and they don't want anything that may happen with us being reported to their insurance companies. They even got the state lawyers involved! (shudder)

Great idea though. Wish it would've worked.

Yes, I would like to change locations, but find me something with a 15,000 acre lake that isn't run by the state and all the amenities that we have. All other sites on the lake are run by the state and now that Paynetown has set a precedent, no other site will agree to less.

As for visitors, yes, if you came in on 446, it looks bleak, but on the other side of the lake and within a half hour or so, there sits the two biggest tourism attractions in Indiana. The town of Bloomington, and the Brown County area which is like a miniature Gatlinburg. The people are there, it's just that the state sorta dropped the ball on advertising last year. (That's another thing I'd LIKE to spend some money on.)

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm you really have yer hands tied and the state just does not seem event friendly.

Unless you can get the chamber behind you some how in the future or some wealthy investors...

[historyfanatic]

Hmmm you really have yer hands tied and the state just does not seem event friendly.

Unless you can get the chamber behind you some how in the future or some wealthy investors...

The chamber isn't interested in anything outside of Bloomington. The local CVB has a mild interest, but they won't help us this year. They are going to be offering small grants starting in 2009, so that may be a big drop in the bucket depending on how much they'll offer. The drawback is that those are temporary and only are available for 2-3 years in a row. Yup. Need wealthy investors... It's too bad that John Mellencamp isn't interested because the event is held in the shadow of his mansion!

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Nathan-

As I've said already, your fees seem more than reasonable for the quality of this event. By way of comparison I just paid $10/person & $15/tent for an event. Judging by the several hundred tents & thousand plus reenactors, having to "pay to play" is not a strong deterrent. It seems perfectly reasonable to me to ask the participants to support the event and to help provide the needed insurance, especially when that event includes such dangerous items as cannon & boats.

Also, that "camp fee" would be waived for anyone who wanted to put on a show of some sort.

I wonder about this though. In my estimation last year, every group was putting on a show "of some sort". Would the camp fee be waved even if only one or two people in a group were doing a show, while the others merely sat around or would every exempt member need to participate? Does participation in the main battles exempt a group from the fee, when from what I could tell basically everyone was part of the battle? While an option to wave the fees is generous, won't that then lower the number of people paying, and therefor increase the total per person cost to cover the insurance? Would people be more willing to pay a small amount per person rather than a larger lump sum?

I'm hoping that makes some level of sense. You do an admirable job of putting on events and dealing with all the details that so many of us don't have the mind for. Your hard work is very much appreciated. I for one and willing to do what it takes to keep this event going.

Chole

[Rumba Rue]

The reason for admission fees to anything is because the cost of insurance, advertising, fees by State/Federal parks or taxes, and the list goes on and on.

Out here at most of the smaller S. Calif. events, groups and people DO GET PAID, provided they do something in return for it, like entertaining the public in some way.

Yes, it's a very nice gesture on the part of Dick Wixon who runs the Ojai and Escondido events among others (Gold Coast Festivals) that he gives a stipend to people who help make the event good.

Other events here in Calif. do pay their 'entertainment' simply because it assures the return of the guests next time to see more.

Without any payment for even gas expense (which we all know is out of sight), you won't have an event. That's what people are wanting for the time they give to come out to your event.

I strongly urge you to think many times before trying to start an event, you need some major capital (several hundred thousand dollars worth), without it, you are doomed to Davy Jones.

[historyfanatic]

The reason for admission fees to anything is because the cost of insurance, advertising, fees by State/Federal parks or taxes, and the list goes on and on.

Out here at most of the smaller S. Calif. events, groups and people DO GET PAID, provided they do something in return for it, like entertaining the public in some way.

Yes, it's a very nice gesture on the part of Dick Wixon who runs the Ojai and Escondido events among others (Gold Coast Festivals) that he gives a stipend to people who help make the event good.

Other events here in Calif. do pay their 'entertainment' simply because it assures the return of the guests next time to see more.

Without any payment for even gas expense (which we all know is out of sight), you won't have an event. That's what people are wanting for the time they give to come out to your event.

I strongly urge you to think many times before trying to start an event, you need some major capital (several hundred thousand dollars worth), without it, you are doomed to Davy Jones.

Well, this is our third year, so I wouldn't say that I'm starting an event... More like trying to keep one going. I also run a very sucessful juried 1812-era reenactment in Indiana. It has county funding and the county provides the insurance.

Let me also point out that Pirates of Paynetown is NOT a ren faire, nor is is meant to be run like one. Pirates of Paynetown was started primarily as an opportunity for hard-core 18th century reenactors to kick back and let their pirate side loose (which is highly frowned upon at juried historical events for F&I/Rev War) and to provide an opportunity to play with our period boats on the lake. No attendees are expected to do anything more than wear their period clothes and attempt to keep their camps historically acceptable. This is why I don't "pay" the reenactors who show up. Most of them are coming from a different background and a different system than the ren faires offer. I can get fifty reenactors to show up in a field anywhere without having to pay them a cent. Ideally, yes, I'd prefer not to have to charge anything for putting on a weekend-long historical beach party. But unfortunately the insurance expense is what's getting in the way. I could try just asking for donations, but I fear that what will happen is I'll end up spending a small fortune out of my own pocket that way. I'm not trying to start a ren faire style money-making machine. I understand how those work and I don't have the funds to do it, nor do I wish for that big of a headache.

Around our area the only reenactors who get paid are the ones who can put on a half-hour long first person presentation, theatrical shows or musical groups, or people who have big, expensive equipment such as cannons or boats.

I've never been to a camp where I got paid to just show up in period clothing and do regular camp stuff.

It seems that so many events across the country are run in such a variety of fashions that I guess there is no middle ground. I've learned through this post as well as a similar one on FrontierFolk.net that it's impossible to please everyone. I will ponder the issue some more before I make a final decision about how to fund Paynetown this year. Thanks for all the feedback from everyone. It has been most informative.

[Cheeky Actress]

Afterthought...

There are many groups (performers and living history) that participate at reenactments that MUST have proof of group insurance prior to being juried/asked to an event. Proof must be sent with their application(s).

In the past 15 years, I've seen more and more events requesting proof of insurance. It doesn't matter if you have 5 or 150 people in your group...the event coordinator(s) want you to be covered.

I know that KISH (1880s Wild West Group) that I'm a part of must make sure that we are responsible for our horses and guns.

Unfortunately, it's been tough for reenactor groups to find insurance companies to cover them.

Though, I do know that the NRA has several differnt policies if you are a card-carrying member.

[Silkie McDonough]

Now I understand.

Can you have people sign some sort of claim waiver? ...again just brainstorming with little knowledge of such things.

[Rumba Rue]

I discovered not too long ago that outside of Calif. many events do not supply insurance to cover the people on their property.

Trust me, here in Calif. it's an absolute requirement by event people in case someone gets hurt, i.e. a guest.

So I guess in many ways we are lucky out here.

But I will tell you our group, Pirates of Treasure Cove has already looked into getting our own insurance.....holy rum barrels it's a major expense that no one in our group can even afford!

Geeze we are still trying to get money together to buy an enclosed trailer for the group....

[William Brand]

It's understandable that some events require fees for rentals, staff and other forms of support, but I've only ever been to PIP, and PIP is free. I pay for my travel to and from the fort of course. I pay for food and extra needs, but the camping and attendence end to end cost me nothing. In many ways I'm rewarded through trades with other re-enactors.

I would probably still attend if fees were small, but everyone at the park is generous, recognizing the contributions we make to be there.